Matchmaker, matchmaker; make me a match... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Diamond18 · 01-02-2003, 04:02 PM

Yesterday, as I was pondering the fates of some characters in a story of mine, it got me to thinking about Éowyn and Faramir. Tolkien says in his Letters that Faramr was a surprise to him, and that he just kind of walked into the story almost without Tolkien planning on him. But Tolkien had established Éowyn as a character before that, and I'm just wondering (idly, I'll admit it) what kind of fate Tolkien had in mind for her before he came up with Faramir.

Since Éowyn's happy ending revolves around Faramir, it makes me quite curious as to what Tolkien was planning otherwise. Did he plan on her dying? Did he entertain thoughts of Aragorn actually marrying her instead of Arwen? Or didn't he have a premeditated plan for the outcome of her character? I do realize that sometimes it's best just to let a story develop and grow while you're writing it (and Tolkien certainly did that at times, Faramir being a prime example).

All right, I can hear you saying, "Gee, Diamond, how are we supposed to know?" I'm not phrasing it as a question that needs answering, I just thought it would make for an interesting speculative discussion. Since we do know that Faramir was a surprise to the author himself, we know that he didn't create Éowyn with that exact resolution for her conflict in mind.

So what are your thoughts on the matter? I guess that being a writer myself, Tolkien's creative thought process really intrigues me.

(And if you're curious about the fates of my characters, that makes two of us! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

Helkasir · 01-02-2003, 04:35 PM

maybe he hadn't planned anything for her, and really was going to leave her behind in the charge; and then had some brilliant idea as to who could beat the witch king.

Kalimac · 01-02-2003, 04:50 PM

Maybe she was going to die. In fact, I would bet on that in the absence of anything else. She's certainly set up for it; unhappy, caged, wanting only to break free and prove herself, so to speak. Even in the books as they are now Eowyn is pretty much longing for death for a good part of it - in the Houses of Healing, before she meets Faramir, her mind continues to be worsening even though her body is on the mend, and she is angry that she will not have another chance to die in battle.

It would be a powerful ending for her - she breaks free of her cage by the most desperate measure possible, and by heroically sacrificing her life to kill the Witch-King and save her people. If that was the case, it's just as well that Faramir came along when he did; as dramatic as that story would have been, far more comfortable for Eowyn personally to end up with a date with Faramir instead of the Grim Reaper.

Gorothlammothiel · 01-02-2003, 05:00 PM

I believe there are so many possibilities for what could have been in the case that Faramir did not have the character he does, in which case I am very grateful that you are not seeking a true answer.

Noting the strength that Eowyn posesses and her kin, she may have become more a leader than she was. Tolkien may have always intended that she would play part in the death of the Witch-king and without Faramir this could have been a key part to her alone. Having said that, the love she has for Aragorn is one of the reasons she does what she does, so Faramir's presence may have had little impact on that situation.

For what it is worth I also believe that Eowyn was supposed to marry, though it is obvious it was not meant to be to Faramir nor Aragorn, as he had quite a destiny. She 'settles' for Faramir, but perhaps Tolkien used this to show the joining of the two kingdoms, Lady Eowyn-shieldmaiden of Rohan and Captain Faramir of Gondor, and to reliterate their stregth not only as individuals but as a unit, together. A lesson to us all.

Manardariel · 01-02-2003, 05:49 PM

I´ve heard he first actually wanted her to marry Aragorn, only then he got up Arwen instead. Which was, of course, much better. Because Eowyn and Aragorn are to different to really work.I mean, Eowyn´s actually pretty normal.. She has the hopes, feelings and fears of a normal girl. We all have been dreaming of a life we can´t have because of something that isn´t even our fault. We all have broken rules to do what we really wanted. That makes Eowyn someone who isn´t all that strange and unknown to you.
And then there´s Aragorn. Do you know how a hero feels? And if you do, have you ever felt so? Always shining, savind-the-day-ish?
Eowyn isn´t like that. She´s a girl who lives her dreams, not a sparkling hero. The two of them?That would have never worked.

=> Just a note... Actually, I think Aragorn kinda is a chauvinist. That´s just my impression, though. Í couldn´t give a quote or something to claim it.

engwaalphiel · 01-03-2003, 08:09 AM

I suppose that Eowyn would have died in the tragic heroine role , I'm glad that she didn't . Eowyn being one of my favourite characters from the book. Perhaps she would have gone back to Rohan with Eomer her brother and ruled along side him or something along those lines? So many possiblities.....

littlemanpoet · 01-03-2003, 11:25 AM

Diamond:

I suspect
that you guess,
like I do, that
Tollers' thought
hadn't settled re Eowyn
until she'd acted the heroine.

[ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

Nevolosse Maehayanda · 01-03-2003, 11:51 AM

Tolkien's been a matchmaker in different situations...I mean...lets take...Elrond and Celebrian...c'mon! Talk about political alliance! Same with all the other marraiges...that's what i think at leat...

[img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Diamond18 · 01-03-2003, 11:58 AM

littlemanpoet:

Yes, it's true,
Like you, I speculate,
That Éowyn's fate,
Was decided of late,
Either that or her date,
(Like Kalimac said)
Was with the Dead,
But myself, I do lean towards the former,
He was waiting for Faramir to transform 'er.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

(Thanks for the interesting replies, everyone).

Arwen Imladris · 01-03-2003, 12:42 PM

O.K. That is enouph ryhm for the time. Sorry, seriously, I think that we all should leave the poetry to poets and tolkien. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Anywho, I don't think that TOlkien would have killed Eowyn, to build up such a strong character just to kill her off? What porpose would that surve? I think that if Faramir had not married her, she would have gone back to Rohan and helped her brother. Faramir would have stayed in Gondor to help Aragorn. That is what I think.

littlemanpoet · 01-03-2003, 02:53 PM

Well that was fun,
and good too, Diamond,
no matter what the Queen
of Gondor might ween...
As to alternate fate
were her 'date' to be 'late',
I say, Arwen, prob'ly 'yes';
still, it's anybody's guess.

Lady Of Light · 01-03-2003, 07:45 PM

That's an intriguing question for me... eowyn is one of my favorite characters; she is strong and brave and wants more than what life has given her due to her gender (more power to her!)
I don't believe that Tolkien would have killed her, there were enough losses already. I believe that after she defeats the Witch-king, Tolkien would have made that enough for her. Perhaps Eomer would have taken her as a war-leader of Rohan, therefore dissolving her "cage"
However I don't think that that would make much sense (though its better than her dying) Eowyn is a highly emotional creature, and though she dreams of adventure and glory like many male protagonists in fantasy, she still has distinctly feminine feelings and needs. Faramir is therefore the best thing for her [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Him being a captain of Gondor (and if not after the war, he would have some other interesting position) would let Eowyn spread her proverbial wings. I still think Arwen is disgracefully underdeveloped, though who knows what goes on behind closed doors?

Peregrin Boffin · 01-03-2003, 10:50 PM

I checked up on Eowyn in the couple of HOME volumes that I have.

The fate of Eowyn changed a lot when Tolkien was writing LOTR. At first she and Aragorn were to be married. Then he changed his mind:

Quote:

Cut out the love-story of Aragorn and Eowyn. Aragorn is too old and lordly and grim...Probably Eowyn should die to avenge or save Theoden.

But then he changed his mind again and wrote that Aragorn could possibly be in love with Eowyn.

And then other things were written that led on to what we have in the books. But I can't be bothered to go through that. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Diamond18 · 01-03-2003, 11:25 PM

Wow, I wasn't looking for a true answer and I got one anyway. Thanks, Peregrin Boffin, for your excellent find in HoME. So my main inkling was wrong, I guess. Oh well! It's interesting to note that the quote goes quite nicely with Kalimac's mention of the Grim Reaper. Here we have Grim Aragorn and Death in the same setence. I like that irony! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

PS: Arwen, are you hinting that we're not poets? Heavens!

[ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ]

Kalimac · 01-04-2003, 01:02 AM

Hey, what do you know. Peregrin, let me second Diamond's thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Just goes to show that the author himself doesn't know what's going on half the time in his own story (I'm sure I don't, at least).

I'm glad it turned out the way it did, though. Having Eowyn die would have been a good, dark story but in a way having her "come back to life" would have been much harder to do; most people can write a dramatic, tragic scene but not nearly so many can manage a good (and believable) happy ending like Eowyn's and Faramir's. Of course, if anyone could do it it would be Tolkien...

01-02-2003, 04:02 PM	#1
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Matchmaker, matchmaker; make me a match... Yesterday, as I was pondering the fates of some characters in a story of mine, it got me to thinking about Éowyn and Faramir. Tolkien says in his Letters that Faramr was a surprise to him, and that he just kind of walked into the story almost without Tolkien planning on him. But Tolkien had established Éowyn as a character before that, and I'm just wondering (idly, I'll admit it) what kind of fate Tolkien had in mind for her before he came up with Faramir. Since Éowyn's happy ending revolves around Faramir, it makes me quite curious as to what Tolkien was planning otherwise. Did he plan on her dying? Did he entertain thoughts of Aragorn actually marrying her instead of Arwen? Or didn't he have a premeditated plan for the outcome of her character? I do realize that sometimes it's best just to let a story develop and grow while you're writing it (and Tolkien certainly did that at times, Faramir being a prime example). All right, I can hear you saying, "Gee, Diamond, how are we supposed to know?" I'm not phrasing it as a question that needs answering, I just thought it would make for an interesting speculative discussion. Since we do know that Faramir was a surprise to the author himself, we know that he didn't create Éowyn with that exact resolution for her conflict in mind. So what are your thoughts on the matter? I guess that being a writer myself, Tolkien's creative thought process really intrigues me. (And if you're curious about the fates of my characters, that makes two of us! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-02-2003, 04:35 PM	#2
Helkasir Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: North of the Iron Hills Posts: 89	maybe he hadn't planned anything for her, and really was going to leave her behind in the charge; and then had some brilliant idea as to who could beat the witch king. __________________ "Onen i-Estal Edain, u-chebin estel anim."

01-02-2003, 04:50 PM	#3
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Maybe she was going to die. In fact, I would bet on that in the absence of anything else. She's certainly set up for it; unhappy, caged, wanting only to break free and prove herself, so to speak. Even in the books as they are now Eowyn is pretty much longing for death for a good part of it - in the Houses of Healing, before she meets Faramir, her mind continues to be worsening even though her body is on the mend, and she is angry that she will not have another chance to die in battle. It would be a powerful ending for her - she breaks free of her cage by the most desperate measure possible, and by heroically sacrificing her life to kill the Witch-King and save her people. If that was the case, it's just as well that Faramir came along when he did; as dramatic as that story would have been, far more comfortable for Eowyn personally to end up with a date with Faramir instead of the Grim Reaper. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

01-02-2003, 05:49 PM	#5
Manardariel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 807	I´ve heard he first actually wanted her to marry Aragorn, only then he got up Arwen instead. Which was, of course, much better. Because Eowyn and Aragorn are to different to really work.I mean, Eowyn´s actually pretty normal.. She has the hopes, feelings and fears of a normal girl. We all have been dreaming of a life we can´t have because of something that isn´t even our fault. We all have broken rules to do what we really wanted. That makes Eowyn someone who isn´t all that strange and unknown to you. And then there´s Aragorn. Do you know how a hero feels? And if you do, have you ever felt so? Always shining, savind-the-day-ish? Eowyn isn´t like that. She´s a girl who lives her dreams, not a sparkling hero. The two of them?That would have never worked. => Just a note... Actually, I think Aragorn kinda is a chauvinist. That´s just my impression, though. Í couldn´t give a quote or something to claim it. __________________ Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)\|FanFic Dream City

01-03-2003, 08:09 AM	#6
engwaalphiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The edge of nowhere Posts: 89	I suppose that Eowyn would have died in the tragic heroine role , I'm glad that she didn't . Eowyn being one of my favourite characters from the book. Perhaps she would have gone back to Rohan with Eomer her brother and ruled along side him or something along those lines? So many possiblities..... __________________ Estel............. Some have it more than others. "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!

01-02-2003, 05:00 PM	#4
Gorothlammothiel Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sitting in front of my preferred world.... Posts: 254	I believe there are so many possibilities for what could have been in the case that Faramir did not have the character he does, in which case I am very grateful that you are not seeking a true answer. Noting the strength that Eowyn posesses and her kin, she may have become more a leader than she was. Tolkien may have always intended that she would play part in the death of the Witch-king and without Faramir this could have been a key part to her alone. Having said that, the love she has for Aragorn is one of the reasons she does what she does, so Faramir's presence may have had little impact on that situation. For what it is worth I also believe that Eowyn was supposed to marry, though it is obvious it was not meant to be to Faramir nor Aragorn, as he had quite a destiny. She 'settles' for Faramir, but perhaps Tolkien used this to show the joining of the two kingdoms, Lady Eowyn-shieldmaiden of Rohan and Captain Faramir of Gondor, and to reliterate their stregth not only as individuals but as a unit, together. A lesson to us all.

01-03-2003, 11:25 AM	#7
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Diamond: I suspect that you guess, like I do, that Tollers' thought hadn't settled re Eowyn until she'd acted the heroine. [ January 03, 2003: Message edited by: littlemanpoet ]

01-03-2003, 11:51 AM	#8
Nevolosse Maehayanda Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: in my mind...(mua ha ha ha) Posts: 17	Tolkien's been a matchmaker in different situations...I mean...lets take...Elrond and Celebrian...c'mon! Talk about political alliance! Same with all the other marraiges...that's what i think at leat... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "Who says you can't headbang to classical music?" ~Alex Vollrath-Smith

01-03-2003, 11:58 AM	#9
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	littlemanpoet: Yes, it's true, Like you, I speculate, That Éowyn's fate, Was decided of late, Either that or her date, (Like Kalimac said) Was with the Dead, But myself, I do lean towards the former, He was waiting for Faramir to transform 'er. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] (Thanks for the interesting replies, everyone). __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-03-2003, 12:42 PM	#10
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	O.K. That is enouph ryhm for the time. Sorry, seriously, I think that we all should leave the poetry to poets and tolkien. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Anywho, I don't think that TOlkien would have killed Eowyn, to build up such a strong character just to kill her off? What porpose would that surve? I think that if Faramir had not married her, she would have gone back to Rohan and helped her brother. Faramir would have stayed in Gondor to help Aragorn. That is what I think. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

01-03-2003, 02:53 PM	#11
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Well that was fun, and good too, Diamond, no matter what the Queen of Gondor might ween... As to alternate fate were her 'date' to be 'late', I say, Arwen, prob'ly 'yes'; still, it's anybody's guess.

01-03-2003, 07:45 PM	#12
Lady Of Light Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: VA Posts: 26	That's an intriguing question for me... eowyn is one of my favorite characters; she is strong and brave and wants more than what life has given her due to her gender (more power to her!) I don't believe that Tolkien would have killed her, there were enough losses already. I believe that after she defeats the Witch-king, Tolkien would have made that enough for her. Perhaps Eomer would have taken her as a war-leader of Rohan, therefore dissolving her "cage" However I don't think that that would make much sense (though its better than her dying) Eowyn is a highly emotional creature, and though she dreams of adventure and glory like many male protagonists in fantasy, she still has distinctly feminine feelings and needs. Faramir is therefore the best thing for her [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Him being a captain of Gondor (and if not after the war, he would have some other interesting position) would let Eowyn spread her proverbial wings. I still think Arwen is disgracefully underdeveloped, though who knows what goes on behind closed doors? __________________ The knight looked to her with reproval, and she laughed, and he could not help but join in.

01-03-2003, 11:25 PM	#14
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	Wow, I wasn't looking for a true answer and I got one anyway. Thanks, Peregrin Boffin, for your excellent find in HoME. So my main inkling was wrong, I guess. Oh well! It's interesting to note that the quote goes quite nicely with Kalimac's mention of the Grim Reaper. Here we have Grim Aragorn and Death in the same setence. I like that irony! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] PS: Arwen, are you hinting that we're not poets? Heavens! [ January 04, 2003: Message edited by: Diamond18 ] __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

01-04-2003, 01:02 AM	#15
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Hey, what do you know. Peregrin, let me second Diamond's thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. Just goes to show that the author himself doesn't know what's going on half the time in his own story (I'm sure I don't, at least). I'm glad it turned out the way it did, though. Having Eowyn die would have been a good, dark story but in a way having her "come back to life" would have been much harder to do; most people can write a dramatic, tragic scene but not nearly so many can manage a good (and believable) happy ending like Eowyn's and Faramir's. Of course, if anyone could do it it would be Tolkien... __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.