Discussion vs Chat

[The Barrow-Wight]

Have you ever realized a discussion topic has devolved into a chat session between a pair or handful of forum members? Maybe not. The transition from discussion to chat is often quite subtle, and it is not obvious what has happened until a full forum page has been filled with idle banter.

Here's an example of what I mean.

Chatman2000 (Discussion)
I love the sigs in the forum. My favorite is MorrisE’s "In the midst of life we are in death, etc.” It is interesting how the message is so pertinent to the dangerous world of Middle-earth, especially in the late Third Age.

MorrisE (Transition)
Yeah, I got that from a The Smiths song, but I think it’s plagiarized from something else.

ChatGirl1987 (chat)
I love The Smiths. My favorite song is “Girl Afraid”.

Squatter of Amon Rûdh (Attempt to save topic)
Signatures say a lot about the poster, especially when they contain references drawn from both Middle-earth and the real world. My favorite is the Barrow-Wight’s. Concise and neat. Says a lot about the man…uh, wight.

Chatman2000 (topic lost)
“Girl Afraid” is OK, but “Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others” is louder than da bombs, man!

Often a post will require a short reply directed at the author, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as things stay on topic afterwards. Only when things move away from the true meaning of the topic is it truly lost.

What’s the meaning of this post?
Every time you post something on The Downs, look at the subject line of the topic you are on. Ask yourself if you are on-topic, off-topic, or on Mars. Then contemplate how you can make your post fit neatly into the topic at hand. If you are unable, or if your post will be replying to someone else’s off-topic rambling, don’t post!

Thanks for your time

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Amen!

*** BW's note ***
Estelyn's emphatic post agrees directly with the topic at hand. It is a good reply - not because it agrees, but because it it on-topic.
***************

[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]

[The Saucepan Man]

Hear hear, Mr B.

I have always found the Barrow-Downs to be an enjoyable forum, but recently, on some threads, it has felt more like eavesdropping on private conversations. That, of course, is fine for the odd post, but a whole page or more ...?! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] Isn't that what PMs are for?

~Saucepan, now feeling a little bit less of a Grouch~ [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[The X Phial]

Yes, I have to say that I rarely look at the threads with more than 5 pages in this particular forum (announcements) because they tend to become personal conversations between a small group of mutually self-congratulatory people. That's what PMs are for, and also what the chat room is for.

Squatter's attempt to save the topic in the above example is valiant, and a credit to his devotion to keep the forum about real discussion. I have seen quite a few people make similar attempts. I thank you all.

[ElentariGreenleaf]

I like to sit on Mars, with my eyes closed, with my fingers in my ears. But I normally say something random, like that, then get back on topic ^_-

************** BW's Warning *************
Normally I would delete interrupting posts like this and disable the author's posting abilities, but I won't in this case because I want people to see what NOT to do.
******************************************

[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]

[Lyra Greenleaf]

Well, I try. The problem now is that with only 10 PMs I won't be able to have many private conversations in private as I'm in LOTS of RPGs and need space for details about them. Sometimes my posts are off topic, but what I usually try is an on topic and off topis point together in one post. Is that OK, Mr B-W?


****** BW's Answer *********
The lesser number of PMs should have nothing to do with staying on topic. For instance, the topic of this thread is going off topic. The topic of your reply is about the PM limit. There is a topic about the PM limit. That would have been the place to talk about that. As for being both and and off topic, I don't get that.
******************************

[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: The Barrow-Wight ]

[Lyra Greenleaf]

If I answer that, will it be off topic? I meant one on and one off topic point together in the same post. It was supposed to be on topic, please forgive me! This being off topic

I wholeheartedly agree that our beloved forum deserves on-topic posts and applaud your efforts. This being on topic! Is this suitable?

And I'll really try hard in future

[Ainaserkewen]

I completely agree with all of this. When people tie into private group discutions, it's hard to get involved.
So usually, if this happens, I just go back to the original topic and go from there.
People should know that not everyone is interested in there conversations with other people, but in the actual post related to the topic.
PS: if I have ever gone off topic and gone chat style, I'm sorry, and I'll try not to do it again. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ElentariGreenleaf]

Talking of going off topic, you REALLY don't help, BW, when you edit people's messages. It just makes them want to post and ask you why you did it. Like with my post..... what EXACTLY was wrong with it? But, I wouldn't want you to go off topic, so I've sent you a pm. You can reply to that.

[EDIT] I would also like to point out, that I don't think it's right some people should get away with group discusions, while others get theirs closed. It also depends on the number of people.

[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: ElentariGreenleaf ]

[Arien]

I too totally agree with all BW it saying.

When people tie into private group discutions, it's hard to get involved.

Definately! Some threads I have visited on the most recent of their pages and all I can see is a coversation between two or even six people with absolutely nothing to do with the topic. You feel kind of rude to intrude on their coversation so you dont post your view (even though I know I should not feel intimidated by them). I am glad that you brought it up BW and I will do all I can to keep on topic from now on.

[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: Arien ]

[ElentariGreenleaf]

*cough* Well maybe you should just go in and post, saying politely that they should involve other people. That way they would not risk being closed instantly by a mod.

[Lossentilien]

Yeh. I'm up with Elentari. Her post was just meant to be ironic and funny, which I think it was, and it's not like it was wildly off topic anyway. And I definatly don't think something like that would be worth stopping posting abilities.

And don't get mad or anything, this is a genuine question, I'm not taking the mick, but why is it so bad if people occasionally go off topic? Like Elentari said, can't you just ask them? Or start it up again? Most of the time I think they'd get back to the subject at hand anyway (given the chance), but it's nice to talk to the members in general, so could you not just warn a closure of a topic, to give them a chance, before deleting it?
I'm not saying I could do it better, I'm just asking why it annoys you so much.

[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: Lossentilien ]

[ElentariGreenleaf]

BW, it wasn't meant to be offencive, if that's what you thought. It's actually from the simpsons....

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

I had to check the dates to make sure this wasn't an old thread: it's nice to see Estelyn around even if only briefly.

Squatter's attempt to save the topic in the above example is valiant

Actually that entire thread is a fictional example: I would never get involved in a discussion about the Smiths (other than to refer to Psalm XXIII) because I know almost nothing about them. Nonetheless it's rather flattering to be seen as an occasional raiser of tone.

In all fairness, though, I'm not the only one. Nor should I be, since many of those infected with 'chatitis' know no better and can only learn by example. Sometimes posting a thoughtful and well-argued response can bring a thread back from the brink; at other times it can simply kill the exchange stone dead or have no effect at all, but you can't spend your whole life betting on certainties.

[Amanaduial the archer]

Elentari, your post was pretty much exactly what the BW was saying people shouldnt do.

Ack. *looks over several recent posts* Once again, ack. Right, will try not to in future. But then, one of the things that I like about the BDs is that it is so personal.

[The Barrow-Wight]

This should not have turned into the "Elentari is mad-at-BW-and-will-continue-to-say-so" post. Purposely or not, Elentari's 'comical' remark flew in the face of my point. In just a few hours, the purpose of this post has almost been subverted.

Thankfully, Squatter has gotten us closer to our origin. I'll bring it home.

Stay on topic and don't chat.


Sidenote: Hundreds of topics on the Downs and only a few get closed each day. People don't realize the incredible restraint we moderators really show. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[ElentariGreenleaf]

*looks at Aman* Now there's someone I respect. Always polite, and gets to know the people.

*bashes head on table* Must stay on topic.. right.

Too many people ARE going off topic. But like I've said, editing posts with annoying remarks, or closing threads is not the best way to get people to stay on your side. BW, you remember the Sharku thing? I really don't want to go through that with you, but I stand up for what I believe in.

*reads post* Darn... *bashes head*

So, STAYING on topic, I wish people would get it into their heads to stay Tolkien. I think once I managed to save a topic. Ah yes, the Evil Rubber Duck (ERD) thread, by getting people to replace them with things in the books ad films. Turned out to be more funny actually...

[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: ElentariGreenleaf ]

[Carlas]

Well, its good that this has finally come up. I've noticed (and probably had part) in this, but its nice that we all get to know eachother, and we are not just a bunch of drones. Not that I'm disagreeing or anything, it is true that people should be carefull of this!

[Lossentilien]

Bw- I think we kinda do understand. Quite a few people have, albeit smaller, forums, so we can imagine how much work you do.
Personally, I didn't realise that people chatted that much, but if they do as much s it sounds, then sorry for seeming insensitive. But I do agree with Aman, part of the reason the BarrowDown's so great is because you get to know people.
But still, I'll make a stron effort not to chat. Or to encorporate it with something very in depth and on topic....he he, just kidding.

[mark12_30]

I've been on the Downs for over a year, and I've been guilty of lapsing into chat more than once. It was the restructuring of the Downs that alerted me to the issue of bandwidth and focus, and that was a good thing.

Briefly, what I discovered was this: that although I'd met a lot of good friends on the Downs and we loved to yak it up ( [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) , nonetheless, this site belongs to the Barrow-Wight. He wants people to enjoy the site, true, but he also wants a good, clean, tight site. He's paying for it. And so if we make him miserable enough, he'd be entirely within his rights to shut it down, or shut us out, or radically change the rules.

Power generates authority, you know? Posession is 9/10 of the law... and the man in posession here is not any one of us minions, but The BW.

I'm glad and grateful that The BW works hard on this place, as do his trusty Mods. And he was generous enough to include this line on his opening post:

Often a post will require a short reply directed at the author, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as things stay on topic afterwards. Only when things move away from the true meaning of the topic is it truly lost.

In other words, slipping in an off-topic sentence won't mean rebuke or exile-- as long as the discussion RETURNS to topic in short order. I call that generous.

This is a privately run site-- and it's run with great patience and generosity. In effect, we are guests in the BW's private residence here, folks. Let's not forget that. If our host asks us to mind our manners, surely we can behave. If not, he is entirely within his rights to take whatever action he might choose, including requesting our departure or closing down the party.

EDIT:

I sit corrected on ownership of the Downs. See BW's dissertation on ownership, history and support here.

[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[The Saucepan Man]

But then, one of the things that I like about the BDs is that it is so personal.

I agree with that, and it is one of the particular features of the Barrow-Downs forum. There are a great number of threads here where people can get to know each other a bit better and stay on topic. Although I am not a contributor to it (see my location [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ), Helen's Walk to Rivendell thread is a fine example of that.

And as Helen pointed out, his Barrow-Wightness has no problem with the odd off topic exchange. It only becomes a problem when the exchange develops into half a page's worth or more and on topic posts start getting lost amid all the banter.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Yesyes, the Saucepan Man (and his stunning new avatar) are completely right. That's actually what makes Walk to Rivendell so great. You can tell a story about your dog or your roommate or whatever you have, and it's still on topic. When threads disintegrate into arguments about whether it's better to be four feet tall or something equally mindless, it's boring for everyone.

Not to say I've never been caught in the odd off topic discussion *blushes*, but some of the threads in here especially look like the chatroom. If you just want to talk to people, swap messenger names or something.

And, thanks BW.

Sophia

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I agree with everything you people have been saying, but I’ve just been wondering about a certain type of discussion: sometimes a discussion will get off topic, but not go into chat. It is still a discussion, just not about what it was started to be about. Would that go under this catergory?

~Menelien

[Beren87]

Not to say I've never been caught in the odd off topic discussion *blushes*, but some of the threads in here especially look like the chatroom. If you just want to talk to people, swap messenger names or something.

I find the ME Madness forum to be like that, I can't stand going any there any more.

Just one question for BW, do you PM those who are constantly off topic? I've never really been PMed a warning about anything, so it made me wonder.

[mark12_30]

Menelien, my understanding is that the topic is under the control of the one who started it "Topic-Starter" and that's one reason that the topic starter is listed on the main pages of each forum. BW and the Mods are primarily concerned that the discussions are Tolkien-related, but (as I understand it) they leave it up to the topic starter to determine if something is on-topic. (Unless it's so outrageously off-topic that they can tell by glancing at it! Then you KNOW you've strayed...) So if the topic-starter is OK with a tangent, then the thread can swing in that direction.

You will see that in certain (very serious) discussions in The Books. Just as an example, let's say a discussion may begin about Frodo, and then veer off to his relationship with Sam, and then veer off to his relationship with Bilbo, and then into why he never got married, and then into a discussion of the effect that the ring had on his post-quest life... if the topic starter approves, that's all okay, if it's serious and Tolkien-related, the mods and the BW will generally let that continue. (Mr. Underhill, or Sharku, or other veterans who happen to be in the thread, might nab you, though. Some give more leeway than others.)

But notice, it doesn't degerate into discussions about one's favorite flavor of ice cream or rock bands or... whatever. In the above example, it revolves around Frodo.

You will also see examples in Books where one serious thread goes off-topic-- in a scholastically, Tolkien-related manner-- and spawns another. Child of the Seventh Age comes to mind, as does Bethberry, but there are many other examples. "It feels different Near the Shire" spawned a thread about England (can't remember the name...) Sharon realised she was switching gears, and graciously began a new thread rather than derailing the current one.

(Now I expect Mr. Underhill, Sharku, or one of the other veterans to explain why I am being too permissive! )
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[ May 13, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Thank you for the detailed answer [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
But (I’m not sure if this is on-topic here), sometimes there are discussions that go off into something not really Tolkien related, but still serious, but are not closed. For example, there is a thread called “Tolkien and Killing?” which sort of veers on and off topic. When it is off topic it is a really interesting discussion, and I check whether anybody’s posted on it every 10 minutes or so, but I doubt that what is being discussed has anything to do with Tolkien just now. It does come back to Tolkien in every post or two, but seems more related to other things. That was more the type of thing I meant than a thread that just changes topics a bit.

~Menelien

[Lalaith]

Mark 12_30 (or do you prefer being called Helen? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) Thanks also from me for that explanation. I actually didn't know that the topic starter had such responsibilities, I shall bear that in mind in future.
I know what Galadriel means, it is hard sometimes when a discussion has gone off topic, but is still very interesting. You want to reply to other people's (offtopic) points, but at the same time have a bad conscience about doing it...

[The Only Real Estel]

Yeah, if you're arguing ( & it won't drag on for pages ), then it's a little different, but if your just 'chatting', GO TO THE CHAT ROOM! If the argument IS going to drag on for pages & pages, just use the PM option, please ( of course you could also use it for 'chatting' too )!!! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Mattius]

..oh no!!! excuse me while I run from the enraged LOTR fans because I didn't see/ reed TT or the RTTK....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Its this kind of stuff that really gets to me! I mean really, there is just no need.

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

Yes, that type of thing annoys me too, though I've done it or something like it before, and I'm pretty sure most of you have. Just one thing- I think it wouldn't be wise to criticize a member who just posted it and may very well read what you wrote so openly, and not on the thread where it was written. Well, hey, I don't know. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

~Menelien

[Alkanoonion]

Chat type posts are the ruin of many a once thoughtful topic, for myself I find that most of my time is now spent wading through the rubbish to find the good, sadly once I do find a good topic my time has all but been used up.

This problem is not just limited to the Downs; due to the influx of new fans many sites are now finding an increased amount of Spam. The problem in my opinion is mainly due to fans that may not be familiar with the correct forum etiquette. One solution is topics such as this, which help educate the novice. Once people realise that social or chat type posts will be frowned upon things should improve.

As veteran users of forums we should all when seeing a topic being derailed step in and redirect the conversation, this can be done by summarising the original argument and posting our reply to that.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Helkahothion]

Just one question for BW, do you PM those who are constantly off topic?

No he temprorarely ban's them. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Well that was my case, I heared from another Barrow Downer that he got a warning. I'll keep the name to myself. Don't know if she wants that out.

As for me, I got a temporary ban partly because I was off-topic so much. I have learned my lesson and try to get all my posts on topic. Ofcourse I can't let out a little joke here and there, but people would die if there was no humor. And I am sure that it is not BW's intention to ban humor from the site. (Right BW?) Anyway, I think that editing post that are off-topic is a good idea. It ofcourse takes a lot of work from the mod's so it would be impossible to do them all. But if for instance a mod would edit the last post of the conversation, state the names of the people that where being off topic and a request to either delete or edit, I think it could work.

Greetings,

Anuion

[Arvedui]

Being a recent arrival at the Barrow Downs, but a long-time Tolkien messageboard veteran, I have to say the whole 'chat vs discussion' debate is not new by any means. I applaud Barrow's effort to keep his site discussing Tolkien in an articulate way, and the fact that the Barrow Downs part of the story, or anything about Arnor or the Kingdom of the North didn't appear in the movies has led from what I have seen here to be more articulate discussions as opposed to 'actor fandom' and such nonsense that seems to have overrun many a once-fine Tolkien messageboard.

Going forward here, I can see the frustration of Barrow Wight in the fact the messageboard can easily turn into an expensive (on his part) chat engine, wheras many a good chat engines (MSN, AIM, Yahoo) are available. The fact Barrow even provides a chat function on the website is amazing in my mind, but I am sure it helps in cutting down in the prattle in the threads but I wonder about the use of resources/bandwidth.

At the same time, there are mentions of the limit of 10 PMs causing more chatty posts in threads. Seriously, this function is really the realm of email, of which everyone registering has to have. If everyone took the time to set up their emails with the addresses of those they regularly chat with via threads, or PMs, it would serve the common good in cutting traffic hence the use of bandwidth, and the costs incurred from said traffic. In this spirit, if you can donate to the Barrow fund to support the site, great, but I saw many who posted in that thread about how they couldn't afford to donate or couldn't for other reasons. They could contribute by using other means of chatting other than in threads or PM.

So here is what we all can do:

• more discussion and less chat in threads.
• use email instead of PM
• use a chat engine (MSN, Yahoo, AIM) instead of chatting in threads or PM

Every bit of bandwidth saved is like a donation to operate the site.

Ok, now let the excuses begin... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[The X Phial]

A very articulate and timely post, Arvedui. I have one more suggestion to add, as well. A lot of the people who chat regularly in #barrowdowns, the provided chat room, use the java applet exclusively. If you only use the link provided under the chat option and you chat regularly a good way to help would be to download an alternative IRC program such as mIRC, which can be found at www.mirc.com.

Once you have downloaded the program all you have to do is connect to a sorcery server (ex. /server cookie.sorcery.net) and join the chat room (/join #barrowdowns). In addition to helping save costs, the program offers many advantages over the java applet, too numerous to list here.

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Seriously, this function is really the realm of email, of which everyone registering has to have. If everyone took the time to set up their emails with the addresses of those they regularly chat with via threads, or PMs, it would serve the common good in cutting traffic hence the use of bandwidth, and the costs incurred from said traffic.

Having recently had a good slap on the wrist on this subject, I'd like to mention that email addresses are not shown on profiles (which is definately a good thing in some cases). But I think this does contribute to the amount of pm traffic on the site. I know I have a separate email account devoted entirely to Tolkien-forum-related mail, and I get more than one might think, but hardly any of it is conversational emails from Downs members, becase my address isn't listed anywhere (it all winds up in my pm box instead). It's actually become rather difficult for me to keep up with my incoming pms, now too.

Here's my question- would it be possible to have an optional email address shown in the profile? I for one would love to take advantage of this, and I think it would help cut down on the chat on the site.

[Helkahothion]

would it be possible to have an optional email address shown in the profile? I for one would love to take advantage of this, and I think it would help cut down on the chat on the site.

I quite agree on that. I have had many PM sessions with Elalia, and we finaly got up with e-mailing each other. It worked like a charm. Since you don't have to restart a new chain after a couple of PM's. I might suggest that we all insert our e-mails. It also helps the mod's since they don't have to post their donws adresses all the time. Maybe it could replace the homepage thing if we don't have bandwith enough for it. But that is just my opinion ofcourse. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Greetings,

Anuion

[The Barrow-Wight]

Putting an e-mail into your profile is a bad idea. If you want to e-mail each other, just trade e-mails by PM. That takes one PM and then it's done. ** We recommend you do not give out any other personal information you meet on the forum. **

[Bill Ferny]

But (I’m not sure if this is on-topic here), sometimes there are discussions that go off into something not really Tolkien related, but still serious, but are not closed. For example, there is a thread called “Tolkien and Killing?” which sort of veers on and off topic. When it is off topic it is a really interesting discussion, and I check whether anybody’s posted on it every 10 minutes or so, but I doubt that what is being discussed has anything to do with Tolkien just now.

No, I don’t think you are on topic, Menelien. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] That’s definitely not a chatty thread. But this does bring up the related issue of what is and what is not “on topic.”

As the guy who resurrected this thread from the annuls of Barrow history, and someone who has contributed, I guess I would like to say something in my defense (for lack of a better word… I don’t think I’m actually being attacked [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]). I resurrected the thread because it was apropos to what was happening in the real world… something not Tolkien related, but none the less, relevant to everyone who breathes, and yes, everyone who happens to read Tolkien. No, I did not intend the resurrection of the thread to become a discussion about the war in Iraq, but I did think it would be good in light of world events if people discussed killing and war in relation to Tolkien and his work. As you know, Menelien, I did take a certain aspect of that discussion to PM because it strayed to more abstract philosophical notions that wasn’t supported directly by what Tolkien wrote, and had to do more with how I saw the world and about my beliefs.

What I have found on the forum, at times, is an almost overbearing fear of straying off topic, especially when the topic might happen to contain religious themes or current events. This is not a forum about philosophy, theology, general mythology, Christianity (more specifically, Catholicism) or current events. There are many other forums for those things on the internet. However, all these things do have a bearing on Tolkien, especially in threads where mythological/social/political/cultural/academic influences on Tolkien are being discussed. A good question I ask myself in order to determine whether my post about these things is on topic or not is: “Does what I’m writing say more about what I believe about ---------, than what I think Tolkien thought and wrote about -----------?” If the answer is yes, then the post is probably going off topic, and I don't post it.

Presenting material and discussing other authors, discussing historical facts, and investigating various mythologies and religious beliefs should be allowed and supported by the forum moderators, as long as it remains related to the life and work of JRR Tolkien. Don’t get me wrong, I think the moderators do, but some people have a tendency to post, “I think this is off topic, but…” or “…to bring us back to the topic…” Most of the time I’m left wondering how what they wrote is off topic, or how the thread is being corrected by a post that doesn’t address what other’s have contributed. For example, over half the information in David Day’s book, Tolkien’s Ring, would be considered unrelated to Tolkien and “off topic” to some people on this forum judging by the standards they impose on themselves and others.

Mentioning a Catholic doctrine, discussing a figure from the Elder Edda or Beowulf, investigating the Sturm und Drang movement in Germany, or the differences between Brythonic and Goidhelic languages isn’t necessarily unrelated to Tolkien. In fact, all of these things are directly related to Tolkien, his beliefs, what he enjoyed reading, that against which he riled, and that which he studied. One can post something relevant to Tolkien without ever mentioning his name or his books. Posters should have the freedom to pursue various avenues and approaches to Tolkien, and the freedom to disagree and present arguments counter to these theories without the fear of being tagged “off topic”.

As far as chatty posting is concerned (since this is the topic of the thread [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]), it seems to me that there are certain threads started for the sole intent of being chatty. I rarely look at these threads, mostly because they are comprised of about a thousand pages of chatty posts. I don’t know if these threads are good or bad, that’s up to greater people than I. However, in the threads that I do participate, I haven’t noticed very much chat-like posts at all. Perhaps it has to do with the subject and initial content of the thread? I dunno. It would be a shame to ban the occasionally witty and sardonic one-liners for which some Downers are famous.

[Bêthberry]

Hello Bill Ferny,

We agree! We agree!

It would be a shame to ban the occasionally witty and sardonic one-liners for which some Downers are famous.

Where we disagree, however, is in thinking of these witty, sardonic one liners as similar to the chat plague. They are diametrically opposite.

Idle banter, or chat, usually reflects comments made on the spur of the moment, part of momentary interest and short-lived reference. Statements such as "Wow, yeh", or "Hey, my head is spinning just reading this," or "I agree" (without providing any reasons) tend to be of interest mainly to those who are immediately part of the thread. Because such comments are so personally-directed, they tend to provide little interest for other readers. They don't reach out to a larger audience. Instead, they reflect the kind of comment which can best be expressed through person communication via PM or in chat itself.

The unique feature of the Downs is, I think, the ability of so many of the threads to provide interest, information, entertainment and amusement for people who were not part of the original discussion. They reward rereading. They reach out to many people. Simple chat does not.

I suppose one could say that the best of the Downs is written mindful of Downers past, directed to Downers present, and ever thoughtful of Downers future.

No apologies to Dickens.

Bêthberry

[kittiewhirl1677]

*Rubs hands together, and gets them ready for the keyboard.* Okay, here it goes, hopefully this is on-topic:

Many of the threads that I make in different sections go a little off-topic, but usually revolve around one idea.

Like, for example(this is not something I would do as it does not relate to the BDs or LOTR, it is JUST AN EXAMPLE), let's say I put up a post about apples(as I just said I would NEVER do this).

People start commenting about them and gradually slide to the topic of fruits, but still always make it kind of revolve around the original topic, would this be okay? Sliding a little off-topic to the more general idea of the topic itself?