What is the ground speed of an unladen Ent?

[Kalimac]

This is one which my husband thought up (in the airport, while we were trying to stay awake and of course talking about LOTR [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) for people who are trivia-minded and good at ME geography, since we're both fairly poor at it. We were reading the bit in TTT where Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin that he has taken them "seventy thousand Ent-strides" during the course of one day. We don't know exactly how long it took them to get to Wellinghall, but Treebeard found them in the morning and they arrived at evening, so say twelve hours. If you do the math on that, Treebeard is taking about 1.6 strides per second which is about normal for a human walking briskly. Assuming that his stride is about five feet or so, he's covering a good 70 miles in one day. This was a little odd to contemplate mostly because I'd always pictured Ents as walking rather slowly, because of their size and also because of the painstaking description Tolkien gives of Treebeard coming slowly down the "staircase" - it seems like they wouldn't want to do anything too hastily, including walking. Also, how big is Fangorn exactly? If it's seventy miles between the edge and Wellinghall, how far is it to Isengard?

Sorry if the question is a little confused, basically I'm just curious about whether first of all the Ents are supposed to go that fast, and secondly if the distances they would cover at that speed jive at all with the geography on on the maps; it's a bit hard to tell.

[Lindolirian]

Hey I like this kind of stuff! However I have noticed that Tolkien didn;t take in quite as careful of consideration as he has on other things in this matter. For instance, I calculated the speed Bilbo had to run to get to the inn and the beginning of his journey at ten o'clock sharp in The Hobbit. (I posed this as a question on a thread in the Quiz Room actually.) Evidently, this three and a half foot 50 year old smoker can sprint at 30 mph!!!
So about the Ents. I'm assuming that we find that J.R.R. is actually human and is capable of mistakes and the world is not perfect. I, however find it very amusing and I think that these little errors make the books more fun!

[Beren87]

five feet or so

His stride would almost certainly be longer than that. The increase in the size of the step as compared to speed is actually quite phenomenal. I believe (but don't quote me), that the increase is something like for every 6 inches added, add another 10 mph. Quite a lot, if you ask me. A long human pace for me (and I'm not really tall) is about 2 1/2-3 feet. So, I assume an ent could do much better. Plus, they didn't bend their knees.

Which, comes back to the "staircase" scene. As I said, Ents don't bend their knees, so going down a staircase would be extremely difficult. Go try for yourself to find out, just walk down one without bending your knees. It's very difficult.

[Noxomanus]

i'm sure Ents would know how to deal with staircases as they never had the ability to bend their knees, so didn't have to change their way of walking like we do when we go downstairs without bending our knees.

[Lord of Angmar]

Once in a while, I feel that a topic comes a long which does an injustice to Professor Tolkien and his works. The Master himself said that he did not wish for readers to dissect his plot thusly, since he felt that it would take away the measure of mystique and reality that is what (in my humble opinion) makes him one of the great authors of all time.

While I feel strongly that the philosophical underlyings and the Catholic and moral values that are reflected in Tolkien's works can and should be discussed (and the Barrow Downs is the best place to do it [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ), I strongly dislike debating the finer points of Tolkien's work, whose discussion I feel leads to a decline in the value of the story as it has been too thoroughly picked apart.

Sorry to rant, I did not mean to disrespect anyone who feels differently (and I'm sure there are many of you [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]).

[ July 26, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Socialist]

This topic is just for fun. I don't think people are taking it that seriously.

Anway, I would think an Ent's stride to be around 10 ft? Anyone have any ideas?

[Beren87]

I strongly dislike debating the finer points of Tolkien's work

Then don't. But we are. That's more or less the point of this forum.

Anway, I would think an Ent's stride to be around 10 ft?

Oh, not that big.

Let's think about this, I'm abuot 6ft, and I have a long stride of 3 ft. That's a ratio of 2:1. Now, as Prof. Tolkien says, the average Ent was about 14ft tall. If we apply the same ratio to Ents, we get a 7 foot stride.

so didn't have to change their way of walking like we do when we go downstairs without bending our knees.

They were, however, less posable then we are, so staircases would take quite a lot of balance. I suppose maybe there's a slight jump or such involved. A special technique, as it were. But, they would certainly have to change their walk a bit. You have to think, also, that staircases are less of a step for them, as compared to us. While a staircase may be a step 1/7 our body size, they're a step roughly 1/15th a Ent's body size. That's a lot less distance to raise your feet, as compared to the rest of you.

[Noxomanus]

I would think Ents had stairs suited to their height so it wouldn't have involved a 1/15 ratio. That little jump is interesting,it makes me think of rockhopper penguins wich climb (sometimes quite high) rocks and come down from them while jumping all the way,this is thought to be the case because they can't lift their feet up that high.

[Amarie of the Vanyar]

how big is Fangorn exactly? If it's seventy miles between the edge and Wellinghall, how far is it to Isengard?

In the maps that are in Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas, Fangorn Forest is about 100 miles high and from 70 to 100 miles wide (it is not a perfect square). In a straight line, Isengard is about 60 miles from Wellinghall, but the Ents must have gone round the south of the mountains, walking for about 80 miles. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

i think they usually walk wtihout haste but maybe he was hurrying for entmoot.I imagined they walked in bigger strides than 5 feet

GREAT QUESTION

[Beren87]

That little jump is interesting,it makes me think of rockhopper penguins wich climb (sometimes quite high) rocks and come down from them while jumping all the way

*laughs at the mental image of an Ent doing that*

That's..not exactly what I meant, but sort of. I was thinking just as the lifted up their, say, left foot to step, they would push off a little with their right. This would enable them to have an increase in the elevation of their whole body, making less knee-bending.

[Beren87]

Oh, for going down staircases I could certainly see that, but going up is an entirely different matter as I said.

That's actually really good hypothesis! Thanks.

[Roccotari Eldandil]

I imagine the stride somewhere around 7 ft. By the way, I love the subject line...
"A European Ent or an African Ent?" "I don't know!" "Eeee!" *Pippin goes flying into the Gorge of Eternal Peril* Oh, how I love Monty Python. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[P.S.: nothing against Pippin (I love Pip!). He just happened to be the closest character to pick on...]

[ August 02, 2003: Message edited by: Roccotari Eldandil ]

[Morgoth the Great]

yeh, thats a point. how would an ent get up if he did fall over? Fangorn says that he "will stand as to stop the drink rising to his head and putting him to sleep"- this gives me the impression that he had layed down before... how did he get up? they must be able to bend a little bit