No congratulations?? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-16-2002, 03:40 AM

The Barrow-Downs passed the 2000 member mark days ago; even as I write, it's 2100 already. There used to be great excitement over each additional 100, over reaching the 1000 mark, but no one has even mentioned this! Have the "old" members gotten too used to success to lose their cool over 2000, or is it too tiring to keep up with that many?! At any rate, congratulations, Barrow-Wight and consorts, on a great site that attracts so many people of many nations and all ages!
I am uncorking a bottle of champagne to celebrate, so welcome over to anyone who would like to join in! "If you want it, come and claim it!" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Gayahithwen · 03-16-2002, 07:28 AM

I want champagne! I want champagne! Oh please, can I have some?!?

*starts to sing*

HAPPY 2000th member la-la!
Happy 2000th member da-daaa!
Happy 2000th member, the Barrows!
Happy 2000th member hurr-ah!

LoL I know I noticed that there was something like 1987 members the other day, but I didn't notice when the 2000th member came here.. oh well.. ANYWAY.
Could I bring some miruvor?

03-16-2002, 08:08 AM

Please, may I join in congratulating BW and cohorts for a great site (that will have a lot to answer for to my superiors soon...) and more than 2K members? And even more to the point, can I PLEASE join in the party? I'll bring a bottle or two, and can promise to sing some assorted drinking songs, too! Party on dudes!!!

(and that's probably enough annoyingly active smilies for now!)

[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tar-Míriel ]

Ahanarion · 03-16-2002, 08:22 AM

As of now there are 2101 members.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: Ahanarion ]

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 03-16-2002, 08:51 AM

Thanks for the notification, Estelyn. Our numbers swell so quickly that it seems almost superfluous for me to get excited every time, but I'm very happt everyone else does [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . After all, as long as you folks are having fun, I'm happy as can be! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Thanks again, and keep talking Tolkien!!!!

Aralaithiel · 03-16-2002, 09:50 AM

Tar-Miriel! Where did ya get those [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] active smilies? Those are neat!

Way to go Barrow-Downs!!!!! Woo hoo!
I raise a bottle of miruvor to an awesome and wonderful site! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Mhoram · 03-16-2002, 10:17 AM

If I forget to celebrate 2000 I can celebrate 3000 next week.

red · 03-16-2002, 01:05 PM

Quality, not quantity, Estelyn. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

-réd

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-16-2002, 02:49 PM

Congratulations, Barrow-Downs. I notice a lot of our new members are sticking around, too, nice to see many wights and shades about. Or perhaps not see..

I have a request of our older, or perhaps newer but creative members: we're going through a topic lull. Can we be bold, folks, have any creative ideas? I include one of my own topics among the lame, game and otherwise plain.

Mhoram · 03-16-2002, 03:15 PM

Most of the topics I think of require people to have read the books. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

***The Barrow-Wight*** · 03-16-2002, 03:31 PM

Those are the best kind!

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-16-2002, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Tar-Miriel! Where did ya get those active smilies? Those are neat!

What active smilies?

[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

twinkle · 03-16-2002, 09:30 PM

ack, bruce!

looking at those things for more than 5 seconds gives me seizures....lol

*twinkle smacks bruce with a large trout....
in case you missed me [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

twinks-evil-twin

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-16-2002, 09:35 PM

Hey now, none of that!

Glenethor · 03-16-2002, 09:41 PM

Yes, congrats are in order.

If I may make a suggestion? Some kind of instructions for newbies that suggests they use the search for certain topics they may want to post? I am noticing quite a few repetitions in the 'Movies and Newcomers' forums (forae?) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] And it is probably best to try to keep repetitions down for the sake of the software and server.

[ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: Glenethor ]

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-16-2002, 10:05 PM

You know Glen, I think I disagree with that idea. A conversation between different groups of people on even identical subjects will be completely different, fresh and new. It's about what the participants bring to the table, not the subject itself.

Mhoram · 03-17-2002, 04:47 AM

besides, it would never work.

Lush · 03-17-2002, 08:54 AM

Ah, Mhoram, I am forever in awe of your optimism.

Mhoram · 03-17-2002, 09:12 AM

realism, practicality, experience.

Lush · 03-17-2002, 09:56 AM

Yes, but kindness is more important than wisdom. And realizing that is the first step toward wisdom.
...I would look up the name of whoever said this, but this has been too rough and tiring of a weekend to make too much effort.
Mhorie, I understand why someone like you may get annoyed by the changes around here, but this is not Lothlorien, and the Barrow-Wight does not wear Nenya on his finger.

red · 03-17-2002, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Yes, but kindness is more important than wisdom. -Lush

Matter of opinion.

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-17-2002, 01:10 PM

"Kindness is more important than wisdom." Oooo! Waxing philosophical are we? I love it. (Where's Mr. Underhill and Kalessin?)

Kindness is inherent in wisdom, and being easier, is a logical first step. Though perhaps one has to be wise enough to know that, or otherwise be guided or stumble into wisdom and recognize the first step in hindsight. The wise consistantly demonstrate kindness, or they have "left the path of wisdom." There is a difference between wisdom and vast knowledge, which is amply typified in Saruman. His vast knowledge untempered by wisdom destroyed him, as it did nothing but feed his pride.

Only likes and dislikes are a matter of opinion.

-Maril

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

Joy · 03-17-2002, 02:14 PM

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!! May the Barrow-Downs continue to grow and propser. May we all grow in knowledge of the works of Tolkien!

Lush · 03-17-2002, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Kindness is inherent in wisdom, and being easier, is a logical first step.

Really? I personally think that there is no way that being kind is easier than being wise, as exemplified by the many evil geniuses that have populated our world over the ages. I think also that Saruman's main problem was that he was very wise, yet ultimately unkind. He placed his own ambition and satisfaction above everyone else's, and perceived himself to be superior due to his vast knowledge, which, to me at least, is the height of unkindness.
What I was ultimately trying to say, or post, rather, was that being good to people should be our overall priority as forum members-yes, staying on topic and contributing to interesting discussions (as well as good grammar-Maril, weird spelling is one of my pet peeves as well) is important, but without general courtesy this place will stop being enjoyable, regardless of all the wisdom that radiates from the Tolkien scholars that have gathered here.
Yes, wisdom may lead us far, but if it is not accompanied by kindness, it will lead us far in the wrong direction. This is my personal opinion, and if I'm being too abstract...Oh well, you can take it. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-17-2002, 03:06 PM

Oh, by no means are you being too abstract! I am delighted!

I may not have made a clear enough distinction between "wisdom" and "knowledge" in my post above. In this context I mean knowledge, as in knowledge of lore, and perhaps skill in displaying that knowledge. Knowledge vast, yet superficial, untempered by depth and understanding of principles. Principles which form the basis of ethics. And the basis of kindness. Wisdom on the other hand, by my definition here, is depth of understanding of underlying principles.

There is no such thing, in this definintion, as unprincipled wisdom. Though there is unprincipled knowledge. My thought is that someone with knowledge, coupled with wisdom and principle, will naturally wish to share it with those who don't have it, or naturally respect the good nature of those who don't require it. While one with unprincipled knowledge, who has never known or forgotten fundamentals ("a white page can be overwritten!" - "then it is no longer white.. and he who breaks a thing to learn what it is has left the path of wisdom") is likely to become arrogant. And their knowledge then might as well be a poison, as it's an agent (or excuse) to undermine their character, and what could have been growing wisdom.

Kindness I think is easier than wisdom, because it does not require a full understanding of equality between human beings, it merely requires a good heart. But to become consistant, it needs a solid understanding of principles, so it leads to wisdom. And is its ultimate expression.

In other words I agree. I think the influx of new member is a wonderful opportunity to examine what we were like when we where young and irritating, lacking even knowledge of the Silmarils (gah! what a thought), and grow a bit.

[ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ]

Lush · 03-17-2002, 03:21 PM

Well, you can get a PhD in physics, in sociology, in history...But kindness is a quality that cannot be measured in that way; furthermore, kindness is something a person has to work on every hour of their waking life (take me, for example, always trying really hard to refrain from flipping off annoying drivers in morning traffic... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ).
I think that the principle of kindness being more important than wisdom should be read with an "outside" perspective. Certainly, these two are intertwined, but people who do not stop to think about this often value wisdom, or rather their distorted perception of wisdom, over the other. This is where the whole "the ends justify the means" principle originates as well-doing what's profitable, not what's kind. Kindness itself is often viewed as a form of idiocy, as in, "what was UP with that idiot Bilbo, why couldn't he have finished that nasty Gollum off?" (Yes, I know that this isn't what Frodo says, but anyway...) In the end, we, of course, realize that Bilbo's pity, and kindness, is responsible for saving everyone involved. If there isn't a lesson in that...
See? I do try to stay on-topic.

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-17-2002, 04:52 PM

Exactly so. I'm agreeing with you, but refining a difference between knowledge, the accumulation of finite information (therefore it can measured with a PhD), and wisdom, the insight and understanding of fundamental human principles and ethics that necessarily underlie kindness. This can be observed, but no, not measured.

Kindness I think is the act. Wisdom is understanding the reasons for it, (and the understanding that is developed from it and extends kindness).

Here's an example. I stopped myself from tailgating slow drivers. Out of kindness, I try not to be irritated with people in the left lane, driving 10 mph.

But what's the thinking behind this, the motive? Well, in one case my thinking might be compassion: "gee, that old lady is probably driving in the left lane because she's scared of all the incoming traffic on the right, and can't handle people passing on both sides in the middle lane. Wow! that must be scary for her, poor thing."

Or it might be equalizing myself with others: "You know, some day my peripheral vision will deteriorate too - and I already can barely see over the steering wheel!"
Or "Shoot, I've put on make up in the rearview mirror myself many times. I bet that woman in the suit is running late for work."

The principles of compassion, of equality, not putting yourself above others, are what I call wisdom. The thinking that supports kindess. I believe this is developed more and more as you practice it.

Saruman is an example of dry knowledge without wisdom (see, I can stay on topic too, although I think philosophical discussions are perfectly in line with the LOTR). Gandalf is an example of wisdom.

Always a pleasure, Lush. I expected you to come forward with some fine depth, based on your pithy observations in the past. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Glenethor · 03-18-2002, 04:06 AM

Hi,

My suggestion is based on two facts:

Oldtimers often get tired of answering the same questions over and over, especially if they are the only ones who have the necessary info to impart; Secondly, the search engine (unless customized) for this software is memory intensive, and, sooner or later, will stop functioning unless the number of threads are pruned back. So, I am not really thinking of myself here. I am a recent arrival, and so do not qualify for the role of 'Resident Sage with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome;' however, I did own a BBS that uses this software, and the 'Search' problems developed as I have briefly described. Then we had to have a debate on what to prune....

I think if you explained this to people, you'd have less repetition. I was looking at some of the really early threads in the 'Books' forums, and they were very interesting. Did PJ really drop in on you? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] In any case, I am just trying to be helpful.
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

***Mithadan*** · 03-20-2002, 05:24 PM

Been out of the country for a bit and seem to have missed some "interesting times". Maril, I suggest you follow the lead of Mhoram and Jessica Jade. There is a wealth of interesting threads archived at the Downs, just waiting to be reawakened. Do a bit of exploring and bring something interesting "up to the top". I can't speak for my fellow old-timers but I've recently been too busy to think about starting new threads.

Marileangorifurnimaluim · 03-20-2002, 07:55 PM

I have, actually.

Out of sheer curiousity, where did you go?

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Maril

***Mithadan*** · 03-21-2002, 07:40 AM

The Bahamas

Mhoram · 03-21-2002, 08:06 AM

Lucky dog [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lush · 03-21-2002, 11:55 AM

Some people lounge on sunny beaches, others sit at home with sore throats and nagging little brothers... [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Hope you had fun, Mith. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I'll get over my jealously soon, I promise.

Elendur · 03-22-2002, 12:19 AM

Congratulations to everyone who setup The Barrow Downs. I remember being here 6 months ago and there was less than 500 members. It has really gotten active around here because of the movies.

I have not been posting much though. I dont like to post unless I have something good to say or ask, and I am just starting HoME. So I think it will be a while before I come back on. I really want to talk in The Silmarillion Revised Edition forum but I dont feel worthy yet. The long posts scare me, you know.

amyrlis · 03-22-2002, 01:42 PM

Glenethor! I'm with you! There are many new (repeat) topics that I just don't post to because I've already answered that question somewhere in a bygone thread, and I imagine that others will get annoyed if I'm always repeating myself. Maybe they won't, but that's what I consider before regurgitating a post. On the other hand, I am just as guilty as the "newbie's" of not exploring and bringing to the surface those dormant threads. I should (and now will) be more diligent about checking them out once in a while. Anyway, congrats on the 2000 BW!

Mhoram · 03-22-2002, 01:47 PM

2206

Eärendil · 03-25-2002, 02:48 AM

Cheez....and I remember it being nearly 1300 when I became a member.... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Eärendil · 03-25-2002, 02:53 AM

Not long after I had become a member I mean..

VanimaEdhel · 03-27-2002, 07:16 PM

*gets out her party favors and jumps behind the bar* what'll you have *I know: I'm under 21, but this is a PARTY!*

WOOO! CONGRATS! MAY YOU EVER GROW, BARROW-DOWNS!

Sindacuion · 05-18-2002, 07:40 PM

Congratulations BD, indeed! This is the site I have been searching for: great chat, great forum and great people! I hope that BD may grow yonder and that the BD'ers would never become extinct. An that goes for all of you. Party on!

03-16-2002, 03:40 AM	#1
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	No congratulations?? The Barrow-Downs passed the 2000 member mark days ago; even as I write, it's 2100 already. There used to be great excitement over each additional 100, over reaching the 1000 mark, but no one has even mentioned this! Have the "old" members gotten too used to success to lose their cool over 2000, or is it too tiring to keep up with that many?! At any rate, congratulations, Barrow-Wight and consorts, on a great site that attracts so many people of many nations and all ages! I am uncorking a bottle of champagne to celebrate, so welcome over to anyone who would like to join in! "If you want it, come and claim it!" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-16-2002, 07:28 AM	#2
Gayahithwen Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The chat-room. Posts: 241	I want champagne! I want champagne! Oh please, can I have some?!? starts to sing HAPPY 2000th member la-la! Happy 2000th member da-daaa! Happy 2000th member, the Barrows! Happy 2000th member hurr-ah! LoL I know I noticed that there was something like 1987 members the other day, but I didn't notice when the 2000th member came here.. oh well.. ANYWAY. Could I bring some miruvor? __________________ Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.

03-16-2002, 08:22 AM	#4
Ahanarion Haunting Spirit Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Tirion upon Tuna Posts: 94	As of now there are 2101 members. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] [ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: Ahanarion ] __________________ Ohtari i Noldor Hosta!

03-16-2002, 08:51 AM	#5
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	Thanks for the notification, Estelyn. Our numbers swell so quickly that it seems almost superfluous for me to get excited every time, but I'm very happt everyone else does [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . After all, as long as you folks are having fun, I'm happy as can be! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Thanks again, and keep talking Tolkien!!!! __________________ The Barrow-Wight

03-16-2002, 09:50 AM	#6
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Tar-Miriel! Where did ya get those [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] active smilies? Those are neat! Way to go Barrow-Downs!!!!! Woo hoo! I raise a bottle of miruvor to an awesome and wonderful site! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-16-2002, 08:08 AM	#3
Tar-Míriel Guest Posts: n/a	Please, may I join in congratulating BW and cohorts for a great site (that will have a lot to answer for to my superiors soon...) and more than 2K members? And even more to the point, can I PLEASE join in the party? I'll bring a bottle or two, and can promise to sing some assorted drinking songs, too! Party on dudes!!! (and that's probably enough annoyingly active smilies for now!) [ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: Tar-Míriel ]

03-16-2002, 10:17 AM	#7
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	If I forget to celebrate 2000 I can celebrate 3000 next week.

03-16-2002, 01:05 PM	#8
red Spirit of Mischief Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Land of the free and home of the brave Posts: 366	Quality, not quantity, Estelyn. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] -réd __________________ "Cats are like greatness: Some people are born into cat-loving families, some achieve cats, and some have cats thrust upon them." -William H. A. Carr

03-16-2002, 02:49 PM	#9
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Congratulations, Barrow-Downs. I notice a lot of our new members are sticking around, too, nice to see many wights and shades about. Or perhaps not see.. I have a request of our older, or perhaps newer but creative members: we're going through a topic lull. Can we be bold, folks, have any creative ideas? I include one of my own topics among the lame, game and otherwise plain. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-16-2002, 03:15 PM	#10
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	Most of the topics I think of require people to have read the books. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

03-16-2002, 03:31 PM	#11
*The Barrow-Wight* Night In Wight Satin Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 4,043	Those are the best kind! __________________ The Barrow-Wight

03-16-2002, 09:30 PM	#13
twinkle Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: my little blooming garden Posts: 45	ack, bruce! looking at those things for more than 5 seconds gives me seizures....lol *twinkle smacks bruce with a large trout.... in case you missed me [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] twinks-evil-twin __________________ “For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomable at the foundations of the Earth.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion

03-16-2002, 09:35 PM	#14
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	Hey now, none of that! __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

03-16-2002, 09:41 PM	#15
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	Yes, congrats are in order. If I may make a suggestion? Some kind of instructions for newbies that suggests they use the search for certain topics they may want to post? I am noticing quite a few repetitions in the 'Movies and Newcomers' forums (forae?) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] And it is probably best to try to keep repetitions down for the sake of the software and server. [ March 16, 2002: Message edited by: Glenethor ] __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

03-16-2002, 10:05 PM	#16
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	You know Glen, I think I disagree with that idea. A conversation between different groups of people on even identical subjects will be completely different, fresh and new. It's about what the participants bring to the table, not the subject itself. __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-17-2002, 04:47 AM	#17
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	besides, it would never work.

03-17-2002, 08:54 AM	#18
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Ah, Mhoram, I am forever in awe of your optimism. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-17-2002, 09:12 AM	#19
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	realism, practicality, experience.

03-17-2002, 09:56 AM	#20
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Yes, but kindness is more important than wisdom. And realizing that is the first step toward wisdom. ...I would look up the name of whoever said this, but this has been too rough and tiring of a weekend to make too much effort. Mhorie, I understand why someone like you may get annoyed by the changes around here, but this is not Lothlorien, and the Barrow-Wight does not wear Nenya on his finger. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-17-2002, 01:10 PM	#22
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	"Kindness is more important than wisdom." Oooo! Waxing philosophical are we? I love it. (Where's Mr. Underhill and Kalessin?) Kindness is inherent in wisdom, and being easier, is a logical first step. Though perhaps one has to be wise enough to know that, or otherwise be guided or stumble into wisdom and recognize the first step in hindsight. The wise consistantly demonstrate kindness, or they have "left the path of wisdom." There is a difference between wisdom and vast knowledge, which is amply typified in Saruman. His vast knowledge untempered by wisdom destroyed him, as it did nothing but feed his pride. Only likes and dislikes are a matter of opinion. -Maril [ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ] __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-17-2002, 02:14 PM	#23
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!! May the Barrow-Downs continue to grow and propser. May we all grow in knowledge of the works of Tolkien! __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

03-17-2002, 03:06 PM	#25
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Oh, by no means are you being too abstract! I am delighted! I may not have made a clear enough distinction between "wisdom" and "knowledge" in my post above. In this context I mean knowledge, as in knowledge of lore, and perhaps skill in displaying that knowledge. Knowledge vast, yet superficial, untempered by depth and understanding of principles. Principles which form the basis of ethics. And the basis of kindness. Wisdom on the other hand, by my definition here, is depth of understanding of underlying principles. There is no such thing, in this definintion, as unprincipled wisdom. Though there is unprincipled knowledge. My thought is that someone with knowledge, coupled with wisdom and principle, will naturally wish to share it with those who don't have it, or naturally respect the good nature of those who don't require it. While one with unprincipled knowledge, who has never known or forgotten fundamentals ("a white page can be overwritten!" - "then it is no longer white.. and he who breaks a thing to learn what it is has left the path of wisdom") is likely to become arrogant. And their knowledge then might as well be a poison, as it's an agent (or excuse) to undermine their character, and what could have been growing wisdom. Kindness I think is easier than wisdom, because it does not require a full understanding of equality between human beings, it merely requires a good heart. But to become consistant, it needs a solid understanding of principles, so it leads to wisdom. And is its ultimate expression. In other words I agree. I think the influx of new member is a wonderful opportunity to examine what we were like when we where young and irritating, lacking even knowledge of the Silmarils (gah! what a thought), and grow a bit. [ March 17, 2002: Message edited by: Marileangorifurnimaluim ] __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-17-2002, 03:21 PM	#26
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Well, you can get a PhD in physics, in sociology, in history...But kindness is a quality that cannot be measured in that way; furthermore, kindness is something a person has to work on every hour of their waking life (take me, for example, always trying really hard to refrain from flipping off annoying drivers in morning traffic... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). I think that the principle of kindness being more important than wisdom should be read with an "outside" perspective. Certainly, these two are intertwined, but people who do not stop to think about this often value wisdom, or rather their distorted perception of wisdom, over the other. This is where the whole "the ends justify the means" principle originates as well-doing what's profitable, not what's kind. Kindness itself is often viewed as a form of idiocy, as in, "what was UP with that idiot Bilbo, why couldn't he have finished that nasty Gollum off?" (Yes, I know that this isn't what Frodo says, but anyway...) In the end, we, of course, realize that Bilbo's pity, and kindness, is responsible for saving everyone involved. If there isn't a lesson in that... See? I do try to stay on-topic. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-17-2002, 04:52 PM	#27
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	Exactly so. I'm agreeing with you, but refining a difference between knowledge, the accumulation of finite information (therefore it can measured with a PhD), and wisdom, the insight and understanding of fundamental human principles and ethics that necessarily underlie kindness. This can be observed, but no, not measured. Kindness I think is the act. Wisdom is understanding the reasons for it, (and the understanding that is developed from it and extends kindness). Here's an example. I stopped myself from tailgating slow drivers. Out of kindness, I try not to be irritated with people in the left lane, driving 10 mph. But what's the thinking behind this, the motive? Well, in one case my thinking might be compassion: "gee, that old lady is probably driving in the left lane because she's scared of all the incoming traffic on the right, and can't handle people passing on both sides in the middle lane. Wow! that must be scary for her, poor thing." Or it might be equalizing myself with others: "You know, some day my peripheral vision will deteriorate too - and I already can barely see over the steering wheel!" Or "Shoot, I've put on make up in the rearview mirror myself many times. I bet that woman in the suit is running late for work." The principles of compassion, of equality, not putting yourself above others, are what I call wisdom. The thinking that supports kindess. I believe this is developed more and more as you practice it. Saruman is an example of dry knowledge without wisdom (see, I can stay on topic too, although I think philosophical discussions are perfectly in line with the LOTR). Gandalf is an example of wisdom. Always a pleasure, Lush. I expected you to come forward with some fine depth, based on your pithy observations in the past. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-18-2002, 04:06 AM	#28
Glenethor Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Far from the twisted reach of crazy sorrow Posts: 176	Hi, My suggestion is based on two facts: Oldtimers often get tired of answering the same questions over and over, especially if they are the only ones who have the necessary info to impart; Secondly, the search engine (unless customized) for this software is memory intensive, and, sooner or later, will stop functioning unless the number of threads are pruned back. So, I am not really thinking of myself here. I am a recent arrival, and so do not qualify for the role of 'Resident Sage with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome;' however, I did own a BBS that uses this software, and the 'Search' problems developed as I have briefly described. Then we had to have a debate on what to prune.... I think if you explained this to people, you'd have less repetition. I was looking at some of the really early threads in the 'Books' forums, and they were very interesting. Did PJ really drop in on you? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] In any case, I am just trying to be helpful. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do. Nothing to kill or die for, and no religion too. Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." Dr. Winston O'Boogie

03-20-2002, 05:24 PM	#29
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,383	Been out of the country for a bit and seem to have missed some "interesting times". Maril, I suggest you follow the lead of Mhoram and Jessica Jade. There is a wealth of interesting threads archived at the Downs, just waiting to be reawakened. Do a bit of exploring and bring something interesting "up to the top". I can't speak for my fellow old-timers but I've recently been too busy to think about starting new threads. __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-20-2002, 07:55 PM	#30
Marileangorifurnimaluim Eerie Forest Spectre Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Buried in scrolls of fanfiction Posts: 798	I have, actually. Out of sheer curiousity, where did you go? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Maril __________________ Deserves death! I daresay he does... And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them?

03-21-2002, 07:40 AM	#31
*Mithadan* Spirit of Mist Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Tol Eressea Posts: 3,383	The Bahamas __________________ Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land.

03-21-2002, 08:06 AM	#32
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	Lucky dog [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

03-21-2002, 11:55 AM	#33
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Some people lounge on sunny beaches, others sit at home with sore throats and nagging little brothers... [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] Hope you had fun, Mith. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I'll get over my jealously soon, I promise. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-22-2002, 12:19 AM	#34
Elendur Wight Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Arnor Posts: 200	Congratulations to everyone who setup The Barrow Downs. I remember being here 6 months ago and there was less than 500 members. It has really gotten active around here because of the movies. I have not been posting much though. I dont like to post unless I have something good to say or ask, and I am just starting HoME. So I think it will be a while before I come back on. I really want to talk in The Silmarillion Revised Edition forum but I dont feel worthy yet. The long posts scare me, you know. __________________ Son of Isildur.

03-22-2002, 01:42 PM	#35
amyrlis Wight Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Helcaraxe Posts: 210	Glenethor! I'm with you! There are many new (repeat) topics that I just don't post to because I've already answered that question somewhere in a bygone thread, and I imagine that others will get annoyed if I'm always repeating myself. Maybe they won't, but that's what I consider before regurgitating a post. On the other hand, I am just as guilty as the "newbie's" of not exploring and bringing to the surface those dormant threads. I should (and now will) be more diligent about checking them out once in a while. Anyway, congrats on the 2000 BW! __________________ "Pull the blinders from my eyes, let me see these endless skies And drown here where I stand in the beauty of the land."

03-22-2002, 01:47 PM	#36
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	2206

03-25-2002, 02:48 AM	#37
Eärendil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor (RtL: 1220 miles) Posts: 562	Cheez....and I remember it being nearly 1300 when I became a member.... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] __________________ Jag ska aldrig göra dig illa. Inte igen. Åtminstone inte mycket, åtminstone inte hårt. Kommer du ihåg? Då vi fortfarande kunde skratta, le på ett äkta vis. Jag tänker på det ibland. Det smärtar. För aldrig har du väl varit. Längre bort. Från mig.

03-25-2002, 02:53 AM	#38
Eärendil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor (RtL: 1220 miles) Posts: 562	Not long after I had become a member I mean.. __________________ Jag ska aldrig göra dig illa. Inte igen. Åtminstone inte mycket, åtminstone inte hårt. Kommer du ihåg? Då vi fortfarande kunde skratta, le på ett äkta vis. Jag tänker på det ibland. Det smärtar. För aldrig har du väl varit. Längre bort. Från mig.