The names of the Istari, and other deep mysteries of life. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Tirinvo · 09-30-2002, 11:10 AM

I think i already know the answer to this, but is it known to anyone the origional names of all five Istari?

This might be a nice tid-bit that could be added or removed or revised in the project:
The Istari are just as nameless and as faceless as the Dwarven language is unknown.

HerenIstarion · 10-01-2002, 01:11 AM

Quote:

UT, The Istari

But two only came forward: Curumo, who was chosen by Aulë, and Alatar, who was sent by Oromë. Then Manwë asked, where was Olórin ? And Olórin, who was clad in grey, and having just entered from a journey had seated himself at the edge of the council, asked what Manwë would have of him. Manwë replied that he wished Olórin to go as the third messenger to Middle-earth (and it is remarked in parentheses that "Olórin was a lover of the Eldar that remained," apparently to explain Manwë's choice). But Olórin declared that he was too weak for such a task, and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go, and that he commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seems to contain word "third"). But at that Varda looked up and said: "Not as the third;" and Curumo remembered it.
The note ends with the statement that Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.

**lindil** · 10-01-2002, 01:14 AM

Original?
As in Olorin I was in the west...

We know no Valinorian names but we do have from UT the 'common' names [ 2 versions I think] of the Blue wizards, Allatar and Pallando I think is one set, I could be off abit. There are many Istari threads in the Books forum.
Personally I think the isatari, Palantir, Glorfindel and Cirdan chapters all could be more or less integrated into a composite 2nd and 3rd age history. Some of the material would probably remain best used though, in an essay form though.

Tirinvo · 10-01-2002, 10:52 AM

I concurr. The Istari explanation was very vague in my opinion and a prose/essay form would integrate faily smoothly; although the fact is: how many readers will accually comprehend the transition from Olórin to Gandalf, Aiwendil to Radagast, Curumo to Saruman, etc. That may need to be addressed in good time though it is a rough spot(or maybe the fact that Olórin has two other names), oh well.

Eruhen · 10-14-2002, 09:59 AM

Olorin only has two other names? Are you not counting Mithrandir, Gandalf, Tharkun, Inkanus, and his other names that we don't know?

Apart from all that, I agree with Lindil that the stuff on the Istari, Palantiri, the Druedain, and all the other Second and Third Age stuff should be combined into a single chapter/appendix. Wait. Not all the Second and Third Age stuff. That would be way too much stuff for even three chapters. We should follow the set-up that CRRT gave us in the UT.

But this is just my two cents worth.

**lindil** · 10-14-2002, 10:53 AM

In brief my thought is that the Translations from the Elvish could also be in 3 [green] volumes as per Bilbo's]

Until we get drafts finalized it is really hard to guess about size/length.

But assuming there are no major discrpancies [ or project member disagreements] size wise the 3 volumes could have contents something like this:

vol 1

Ainulindale
Valaquente

The silmarillion w/ additonal 1st age narrative material [ Of Tuor, The Narn, Druedain, Athrabeth etc]

Vol 2
appendices to the 1st age [this could go in any volume really]
including such things as:
the commentary to the Athrabeth,
Laws and Customs
Osanwe-Kenta
Dwarves and Men [sections not included as narrative]
-=-=-
Narratives of the Second age:
description of numenor/Line of Kings*
Akkalabeth*
Of the rings of power[pt1]*
Galadriel and Celeborn etc*.
Aldarion and Erendis*
any relevant material from the PoME and LotR appendices
* = all included a composite chronlogical narrative fo the the second age

Vol 3
narrative of ther 3rd age inc texts such as:
Disaster of the gladden feilds*
much material from the PoME and LotR appendices on Arnor Gondor and Rhovanion*
Cirion and Eorl*
OF the Rings ...and the third Age[pt 2]*
Galadriel and Celeborn pt 2*
Glorfindel/Cirdan/Istari etc
etc.
* = all included a composite chronlogical narrative for the the third age

Elvish linguistic materials such as:
Quendi and Eldar
Shibboleth of Feanor [linguistic part]
Namarie and A Elbereth Gilthoniel [ from The Road Goes Ever On]
Etymologies

just a rough idea. I have not updated this list w/in the intro-FAQ thread in a good while, so till then...

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

Eruhen · 10-14-2002, 12:31 PM

Very good idea, Lindil. I don't know how long these ideas have been floating around, but I still agree with them. The texts are arranged in a logical order and they contain almost everything that any Tolkienist could want. Best of all, it's ALL IN ONE PLACE!!!!

However, if and when we get permission from CRRT to publish this monster (that is, if we ever finish it - ugh [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ), we should probably set it out in three red volumes, like Biblo gave to Frodo at the end of LotR. It would be most non-non-non-heinous (if I may quote from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure) if we convinced Chris Tolkien to look over our little endeavor and then give it to Houghton Mifflin to publish it (with our names in it as compilers, of course [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ), but as you guys have said before, we can't even consider doing that until TftE is actually finished. And Manwë only knows how long that will take!

**lindil** · 10-14-2002, 12:53 PM

"All in one volume !"

Exactly [ well ok 3 volumes]Although I suppose special Bible-weight [ultra -ultra thin acid free ] paper edition could be issued [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I could see doing sending the first Volume to CRRT if we get it done in his lifetime, and pray fiercely for approval.

I may be wrong but I thought Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish was a 3 volume green book.

Any way we ahve a long ways to go to get there.

[ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ]

Westerly Wizard · 10-14-2002, 03:22 PM

Just to add, in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Christopher Tolkien includes an work on the Istari from the last years of his fathers life, that at the time Unfinished Tales was written was undecipherable. In it, the Blue Wizards are given the names Morinehtar and Romestamo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper.

HerenIstarion · 10-14-2002, 11:46 PM

Thanks for an info, WEsterly Wizard, and welcome to the Downs. May your bones find proper rest here [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

09-30-2002, 11:10 AM	#1
Tirinvo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eregion Posts: 36	The names of the Istari, and other deep mysteries of life. I think i already know the answer to this, but is it known to anyone the origional names of all five Istari? This might be a nice tid-bit that could be added or removed or revised in the project: The Istari are just as nameless and as faceless as the Dwarven language is unknown. __________________ Do you live the Truth, or are you a mere speaker? For those whom speak life without life, from complacency, cannot be heard... Anquildëa alcareryassë

10-01-2002, 01:14 AM	#3
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	Original? As in Olorin I was in the west... We know no Valinorian names but we do have from UT the 'common' names [ 2 versions I think] of the Blue wizards, Allatar and Pallando I think is one set, I could be off abit. There are many Istari threads in the Books forum. Personally I think the isatari, Palantir, Glorfindel and Cirdan chapters all could be more or less integrated into a composite 2nd and 3rd age history. Some of the material would probably remain best used though, in an essay form though. __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-01-2002, 10:52 AM	#4
Tirinvo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Eregion Posts: 36	I concurr. The Istari explanation was very vague in my opinion and a prose/essay form would integrate faily smoothly; although the fact is: how many readers will accually comprehend the transition from Olórin to Gandalf, Aiwendil to Radagast, Curumo to Saruman, etc. That may need to be addressed in good time though it is a rough spot(or maybe the fact that Olórin has two other names), oh well. __________________ Do you live the Truth, or are you a mere speaker? For those whom speak life without life, from complacency, cannot be heard... Anquildëa alcareryassë

10-14-2002, 09:59 AM	#5
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	Olorin only has two other names? Are you not counting Mithrandir, Gandalf, Tharkun, Inkanus, and his other names that we don't know? Apart from all that, I agree with Lindil that the stuff on the Istari, Palantiri, the Druedain, and all the other Second and Third Age stuff should be combined into a single chapter/appendix. Wait. Not all the Second and Third Age stuff. That would be way too much stuff for even three chapters. We should follow the set-up that CRRT gave us in the UT. But this is just my two cents worth. __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

10-14-2002, 10:53 AM	#6
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	In brief my thought is that the Translations from the Elvish could also be in 3 [green] volumes as per Bilbo's] Until we get drafts finalized it is really hard to guess about size/length. But assuming there are no major discrpancies [ or project member disagreements] size wise the 3 volumes could have contents something like this: vol 1 Ainulindale Valaquente The silmarillion w/ additonal 1st age narrative material [ Of Tuor, The Narn, Druedain, Athrabeth etc] Vol 2 appendices to the 1st age [this could go in any volume really] including such things as: the commentary to the Athrabeth, Laws and Customs Osanwe-Kenta Dwarves and Men [sections not included as narrative] -=-=- Narratives of the Second age: description of numenor/Line of Kings* Akkalabeth* Of the rings of power[pt1]* Galadriel and Celeborn etc. Aldarion and Erendis any relevant material from the PoME and LotR appendices * = all included a composite chronlogical narrative fo the the second age Vol 3 narrative of ther 3rd age inc texts such as: Disaster of the gladden feilds* much material from the PoME and LotR appendices on Arnor Gondor and Rhovanion* Cirion and Eorl* OF the Rings ...and the third Age[pt 2]* Galadriel and Celeborn pt 2* Glorfindel/Cirdan/Istari etc etc. * = all included a composite chronlogical narrative for the the third age Elvish linguistic materials such as: Quendi and Eldar Shibboleth of Feanor [linguistic part] Namarie and A Elbereth Gilthoniel [ from The Road Goes Ever On] Etymologies just a rough idea. I have not updated this list w/in the intro-FAQ thread in a good while, so till then... [ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-14-2002, 12:31 PM	#7
Eruhen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: At the Mountains of Madness Posts: 399	Very good idea, Lindil. I don't know how long these ideas have been floating around, but I still agree with them. The texts are arranged in a logical order and they contain almost everything that any Tolkienist could want. Best of all, it's ALL IN ONE PLACE!!!! However, if and when we get permission from CRRT to publish this monster (that is, if we ever finish it - ugh [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ), we should probably set it out in three red volumes, like Biblo gave to Frodo at the end of LotR. It would be most non-non-non-heinous (if I may quote from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure) if we convinced Chris Tolkien to look over our little endeavor and then give it to Houghton Mifflin to publish it (with our names in it as compilers, of course [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ), but as you guys have said before, we can't even consider doing that until TftE is actually finished. And Manwë only knows how long that will take! __________________ Agannâlô burôda nênud; zâira nênud. Adûn izindi batân tâidô ayadda: îdô kâtha batîna lôkhî. Êphalak îdôn Yôzâyan. Êphal êphalak îdôn hi-Akallabêth.

10-14-2002, 12:53 PM	#8
lindil Seeker of the Straight Path Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: a hidden fastness in Big Valley nor cal Posts: 1,680	"All in one volume !" Exactly [ well ok 3 volumes]Although I suppose special Bible-weight [ultra -ultra thin acid free ] paper edition could be issued [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I could see doing sending the first Volume to CRRT if we get it done in his lifetime, and pray fiercely for approval. I may be wrong but I thought Bilbo's Translations from the Elvish was a 3 volume green book. Any way we ahve a long ways to go to get there. [ October 14, 2002: Message edited by: lindil ] __________________ The dwindling Men of the West would often sit up late into the night exchanging lore & wisdom such as they still possessed that they should not fall back into the mean estate of those who never knew or indeed rebelled against the Light.

10-14-2002, 03:22 PM	#9
Westerly Wizard Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 72	Just to add, in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, Christopher Tolkien includes an work on the Istari from the last years of his fathers life, that at the time Unfinished Tales was written was undecipherable. In it, the Blue Wizards are given the names Morinehtar and Romestamo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper. __________________ "He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure."

10-14-2002, 11:46 PM	#10
HerenIstarion Deadnight Chanter Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 4,244	Thanks for an info, WEsterly Wizard, and welcome to the Downs. May your bones find proper rest here [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Egroeg Ihkhsal - Would you believe in the love at first sight? - Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time!