Short end of the stick, so to speak... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

FingolfintheBold · 09-25-2003, 02:39 PM

Pun righteously intended. My question deals with the dwarves and their dealings with Iluvatar. Obviously Men and Elves had their own personal gifting straight from Eru, almost an offering of love from creator to creation. Did the dwarves, as effectivley illegitimate children, receive a special gift. he let them live, which is always nice, and supposedly gave them a place among his children for The END, but beyond that.

And i dont mean phisical differences from the other children. Men and elves and dwarves are all different, created with different strengths and weaknesses of bodily form. But lets say, If men's gift is to die and leave the world, can anyone put a solid gift on dwarves? I dont really see one. Perhaps that is simply their lot because they werent made by Eru himself, and indeed, have already been shone much grace.

Thoughts?

***Sharkû*** · 09-25-2003, 03:23 PM

The dwarven view about their afterlife is that they can be with Mahal. In lack of a definite statement, we could assume that in this case, being with your creator, and perhaps the Creator of All is quite a great gift.

tinewelt · 09-25-2003, 05:47 PM

I think you were close to the mark when you said that the dwarves were not made by Illuvatar. Although it was Eru who allowed the dwarves to live,(which was a gift in itself, as you stated) it was Aule that created them, and so its probably not in his power to give the type of gift that Illuvatar could give. But, there are much deeper interpretations and ideas concerning this, this is just my surface opinion.

lore_master · 09-25-2003, 06:00 PM

well, the dwarves did have more resilence to evil and were greater in strength. but since Eru didnt give them those gifts, i dont he gave them anything.

Esgallhugwen · 09-25-2003, 06:57 PM

Eru did not give the Dwarves gifts well besides being able to live in the first place. They do have a remarkable resistance to evil as Lore Master has pointed out. Perhaps although this might be considered a physical trait and perhaps not so unique, the Dwarves are very knowledgible when it comes to precious metals and gems and how to craft them into marvelous items. Than again each race can do this according to thier skills and knowledge of such things and whether they care much for them or not. It is a very good question and quite perplexing in it's simplicity. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Esgallhugwen ]

Alatariel · 10-01-2003, 08:23 AM

The dwarves have a lot of knowledge about precious metals and jewels because that is what Aule, their creator, was interested in. Each of Iluvatar's children has a specific realm in which they specialized, and Aule's was earth. From the Silmarillion:

Quote:

"The dwarves were made by Aule in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aule desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts...and Aule made the dwarves as they still are."

The gift that they recieve from Iluvatar is speech and free will...for Aule had not given the dwarves these yet before Iluvatar discovered them. (See chapter 2 of the Sil).

[ October 01, 2003: Message edited by: Alatariel ]

Findegil · 10-01-2003, 01:34 PM

Aule did device a speech for the dwarves.

The will independent of Aule was a gift of Eru for the dwarves, and who would aks for more?

But may be there was even a further gift: Dúrin and all the seven father are said to repear from time to time among there own kin. and recieved in time full memory of there former lives.
If that saying is true than we can see the gifts of Eru as:

Elves -> imortilaty
Men -> death or better the ablety to leave the world behind
Dwarves -> real rebirth as children

Respectfully
Findegil

Alatariel · 10-01-2003, 02:20 PM

I am not sure where it says that Aule gave the dwarves the ability of speech...could you possibly point this out? Interesting concept about the re-birth being his gift as well as their own free will independent of Aule. I don't think anyone has considered that before. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

FingolfintheBold · 10-02-2003, 06:59 PM

That is very insightful Findegil. i never even thought about the rebirth of the Dwarf Lords... i think if anyone nailed it down, its you.

Eladar · 10-02-2003, 07:44 PM

Dwarves -> real rebirth as children

Here is another version from Peoples of Middle-earth, Last Writings

Quote:

The Dwarves add that at the time Aule gained them also this priviledge that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers (such as Durin) should, at the end of the long span of life allotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then lie in a tomb of his own body, at rest, and there its weariness and any hurts that had befallen it should be amended. Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingship again.

Eldar14 · 10-03-2003, 11:33 AM

You say that the rebirth is the gift, but the elves are reborn in their children also, which is why their numbers neither dwindle nor grow. Maybe the gift isn't so much the rebirth, but the time of rest. The elves only get this time of rest when they die, which is usually only caused violently and painfully. But the dwarves get this rest from old age.

Susan Delgado · 10-03-2003, 01:28 PM

Quote:

but the elves are reborn in their children also

Where do you get this notion? Where does it say?

the mortal elf · 10-03-2003, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Where do you get this notion? Where does it say?

I'm not quite sure of the exact place, but isn't it implied in the Sil that the Glorfindel who fell fighting in Gondolin was the same one (born again) who saved Frodo in FotR? Maybe I'm just imagining things, but that's what I seem to remember.

tinewelt · 10-03-2003, 10:53 PM

i do not have the source either, but i believe it was in one of the letters. It was the same glorfindel, however, he also said it was very rare. Which implies that it is not "guaranteed" or prophecised as like the 7 fathers.

Eladar · 10-04-2003, 12:58 AM

The Elven rebirth theory is one of Tolkien's older ideas that got thrown out the window.

In The Peoples of Middle-earth, you can find a couple of essays on Glorfindel where Tolkien talks about Manwe creating another body for Glorfinel.

In Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Findrod Ah Andreth, Appendix has a section called "The Converse of Manwe and Eru' and later conception of Elvish reincarnation. It goes into some detail about how Eru gives Manwe the right to recreate hroar for unhoused fear.

10-04-2003, 12:59 AM

I think that findegil has a most interesting point in the rebirth theory. I do agree with it. As long as for the elves rebirth, i don´t think that´s totally accured, because(i don´t remember well) Gandalf told Frodo that Glorfindel was existing both places, Valinor in Mandos,and Rivendel in middle earth. I think it was more like a double life or a reflection of the real glorfindel, thing that was allowed only to Lord elves as gandalf said. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Eladar · 10-04-2003, 01:20 AM

If one puts much stock in Tolkien's later writings, then one will come to the conclusion that almost all elves that die are given new bodies.

Findegil · 10-06-2003, 05:28 AM

As said before, JRR Toklien change the idea of second-live of the Elves. He came in the end to the conclusion that the Elves were not reborn as children, because they were supposed to continue their former live.
The Elves were re-incarnated, that means the fea (soul) was put into a new-build hoar (body). The new hoar was an exact copy of the one that perished and it was fabricated by the Valar. So the re-incarneted Elves were in Valinor and almost all stayed their. Some Elves did not desire re-incarnation and to some it was denied by Mandos.

It is right that JRR Tolkien hesitated also about the rebirth of the Fathers of the Dwarves. But there is no evidence that he rejected it entirely for them.
In view of the topic I put out the theory that the gift for the Dwarves was real rebirth as children. This is of course only a theory, back-uped only by the Fathers of the Dwarves who gained full memory of thier former lives. But Gimli showed also some hints of "racial-memory". He tells the fellowship that they, the Dwarves of Erebor, dream about the three pikes of Moria, and he recognised the Balrog for what it was called by the Dwarves, "Durin's Bane".

To put it straight my theory is:
All Dwarves were reborn as children in their own kin. Only the Fathers of the Dwarves came, when they had grown up, to full memory of thier former lives. All other Dwarves had only faint memory as revaled in dreams and visions.

Respectfully
Findegil

Groin Redbeard · 04-16-2008, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

To put it straight my theory is:
All Dwarves were reborn as children in their own kin. Only the Father of the Dwarves came when they had grown to full memory of thier former lives. All other Dwarves had only faint memory as revaled in dreams and visions.

I'm a bit confused, is this reborn theory a type of reancarnation?

I don't see that as a special type of gift, after all the elves had eternal life and then go to dwell in the halls of Mandos.

I'm not sure where I've heard it (I think it was from Legate), but I think that the dwarves dwell with Aule until the worlds end; after that they will help him rebuild a new Middle Earth.

The Sixth Wizard · 04-17-2008, 04:04 AM

Very interesting topic, thank you for reviving it, if only so I could read it! I don't think the only unique gift of the Dwarves was their jewellery skills ...

I always imagined dwarven psyche as the kind you are using when you pick at a scab, or dig a massive pit in sand, or gut out a hole in a school table with a pair of scissors; it seems pointless and slow in hindsight, but you think to yourself later "I just sat there and did that for HOW long??". And you get this massive great hole as a result.

I could see that patient, never-give-up psyche working in a Dwarf 24-7 (and I bet it would be cool).

Findegil · 04-17-2008, 01:37 PM

The difference between re-birth and re-incarnation is, that in the case of re-birth the person becomes a child and to gain a happy childhood the memory of the former life has to be swept out. Therefore we are told, that the Fathers of the Dwarves got the memory of their former lives only back later when they were grown up again.

A person that is re-incarnated, on the other hand, gets back his own body in the state before its destruction which had led to the end of its former life, with memory of its former life and all else. In my point of view there was one great difference, but Tolkien did never address this point: The Elves in Middle-Earth faded, but in Valinor they did not. Therefore, I believe, that the body created for the re-incarnation was an unfaded body, even if the Elve had before lived in Middle-Earth and its former body had already shown significant signs of fading. That might have been a further reason, why only very few re-incarnated Elves left Valinor.

The Elves had not eternal life. They had life as long as Middle-Earth was inhabitable. If they lost their body during that time they went to Mandos not afterwards. What happened to them after Middle-Earth was ended they did not know. For Men on the other hand (and for Dwarves also) there was a promise of an after life even beyond the point of the last battle and the destruction of Middle-Earth.

Is re-birth a gift? Is death to an unknown doom a gift? Is a live as long as the existence of Middle-Earth, with an unknown doom afterwards a gift?
Who shall envy whom? We hear that Elves and Men did envy each other at times. Why should it be other wise with Men and Dwarves or Dwarves and Elves? Who would not wish (at times at least) back to the happy day of childhood with no responsibility and the freshness of so many experiences?

Respectfully
Findegil

09-25-2003, 02:39 PM	#1
FingolfintheBold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere between knowing my path and walking it Posts: 69	Short end of the stick, so to speak... Pun righteously intended. My question deals with the dwarves and their dealings with Iluvatar. Obviously Men and Elves had their own personal gifting straight from Eru, almost an offering of love from creator to creation. Did the dwarves, as effectivley illegitimate children, receive a special gift. he let them live, which is always nice, and supposedly gave them a place among his children for The END, but beyond that. And i dont mean phisical differences from the other children. Men and elves and dwarves are all different, created with different strengths and weaknesses of bodily form. But lets say, If men's gift is to die and leave the world, can anyone put a solid gift on dwarves? I dont really see one. Perhaps that is simply their lot because they werent made by Eru himself, and indeed, have already been shone much grace. Thoughts? __________________ There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea?

09-25-2003, 06:00 PM	#4
lore_master Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Valhalla Posts: 116	well, the dwarves did have more resilence to evil and were greater in strength. but since Eru didnt give them those gifts, i dont he gave them anything. __________________ As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think

09-25-2003, 06:57 PM	#5
Esgallhugwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Where the Moon cries against the snow Posts: 526	Eru did not give the Dwarves gifts well besides being able to live in the first place. They do have a remarkable resistance to evil as Lore Master has pointed out. Perhaps although this might be considered a physical trait and perhaps not so unique, the Dwarves are very knowledgible when it comes to precious metals and gems and how to craft them into marvelous items. Than again each race can do this according to thier skills and knowledge of such things and whether they care much for them or not. It is a very good question and quite perplexing in it's simplicity. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [ September 25, 2003: Message edited by: Esgallhugwen ] __________________ "...for the sin of the idolater is not that he worships stone, but that he worships one stone over others. -8:9:4 The Witness of Fane"

10-01-2003, 02:20 PM	#8
Alatariel Wight Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: The Cliffs of Insanity Posts: 178	I am not sure where it says that Aule gave the dwarves the ability of speech...could you possibly point this out? Interesting concept about the re-birth being his gift as well as their own free will independent of Aule. I don't think anyone has considered that before. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ You mean you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword and we'll try to kill each other like civilized people?

10-02-2003, 06:59 PM	#9
FingolfintheBold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere between knowing my path and walking it Posts: 69	That is very insightful Findegil. i never even thought about the rebirth of the Dwarf Lords... i think if anyone nailed it down, its you. __________________ There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea?

09-25-2003, 03:23 PM	#2
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	The dwarven view about their afterlife is that they can be with Mahal. In lack of a definite statement, we could assume that in this case, being with your creator, and perhaps the Creator of All is quite a great gift.

09-25-2003, 05:47 PM	#3
tinewelt Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the Seventh Gate of Gondolin Posts: 76	I think you were close to the mark when you said that the dwarves were not made by Illuvatar. Although it was Eru who allowed the dwarves to live,(which was a gift in itself, as you stated) it was Aule that created them, and so its probably not in his power to give the type of gift that Illuvatar could give. But, there are much deeper interpretations and ideas concerning this, this is just my surface opinion.

10-01-2003, 01:34 PM	#7
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Aule did device a speech for the dwarves. The will independent of Aule was a gift of Eru for the dwarves, and who would aks for more? But may be there was even a further gift: Dúrin and all the seven father are said to repear from time to time among there own kin. and recieved in time full memory of there former lives. If that saying is true than we can see the gifts of Eru as: Elves -> imortilaty Men -> death or better the ablety to leave the world behind Dwarves -> real rebirth as children Respectfully Findegil

10-03-2003, 11:33 AM	#11
Eldar14 Wight Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: the Cottage of Lost Play Posts: 182	You say that the rebirth is the gift, but the elves are reborn in their children also, which is why their numbers neither dwindle nor grow. Maybe the gift isn't so much the rebirth, but the time of rest. The elves only get this time of rest when they die, which is usually only caused violently and painfully. But the dwarves get this rest from old age. __________________ "Come away! Let the cowards keep this city!" -- Fëanor to the Noldor

10-03-2003, 10:53 PM	#14
tinewelt Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the Seventh Gate of Gondolin Posts: 76	i do not have the source either, but i believe it was in one of the letters. It was the same glorfindel, however, he also said it was very rare. Which implies that it is not "guaranteed" or prophecised as like the 7 fathers.

10-04-2003, 12:58 AM	#15
Eladar Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 36	The Elven rebirth theory is one of Tolkien's older ideas that got thrown out the window. In The Peoples of Middle-earth, you can find a couple of essays on Glorfindel where Tolkien talks about Manwe creating another body for Glorfinel. In Morgoth's Ring, Athrabeth Findrod Ah Andreth, Appendix has a section called "The Converse of Manwe and Eru' and later conception of Elvish reincarnation. It goes into some detail about how Eru gives Manwe the right to recreate hroar for unhoused fear.

10-04-2003, 12:59 AM	#16
Masterdwarf Guest Posts: n/a	I think that findegil has a most interesting point in the rebirth theory. I do agree with it. As long as for the elves rebirth, i don´t think that´s totally accured, because(i don´t remember well) Gandalf told Frodo that Glorfindel was existing both places, Valinor in Mandos,and Rivendel in middle earth. I think it was more like a double life or a reflection of the real glorfindel, thing that was allowed only to Lord elves as gandalf said. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

10-04-2003, 01:20 AM	#17
Eladar Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 36	If one puts much stock in Tolkien's later writings, then one will come to the conclusion that almost all elves that die are given new bodies.

10-06-2003, 05:28 AM	#18
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	As said before, JRR Toklien change the idea of second-live of the Elves. He came in the end to the conclusion that the Elves were not reborn as children, because they were supposed to continue their former live. The Elves were re-incarnated, that means the fea (soul) was put into a new-build hoar (body). The new hoar was an exact copy of the one that perished and it was fabricated by the Valar. So the re-incarneted Elves were in Valinor and almost all stayed their. Some Elves did not desire re-incarnation and to some it was denied by Mandos. It is right that JRR Tolkien hesitated also about the rebirth of the Fathers of the Dwarves. But there is no evidence that he rejected it entirely for them. In view of the topic I put out the theory that the gift for the Dwarves was real rebirth as children. This is of course only a theory, back-uped only by the Fathers of the Dwarves who gained full memory of thier former lives. But Gimli showed also some hints of "racial-memory". He tells the fellowship that they, the Dwarves of Erebor, dream about the three pikes of Moria, and he recognised the Balrog for what it was called by the Dwarves, "Durin's Bane". To put it straight my theory is: All Dwarves were reborn as children in their own kin. Only the Fathers of the Dwarves came, when they had grown up, to full memory of thier former lives. All other Dwarves had only faint memory as revaled in dreams and visions. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 04-17-2008 at 01:05 PM.

04-17-2008, 04:04 AM	#20
The Sixth Wizard Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stuck under a rock in Valinor with Ar-Pharazon. Posts: 480	Very interesting topic, thank you for reviving it, if only so I could read it! I don't think the only unique gift of the Dwarves was their jewellery skills ... I always imagined dwarven psyche as the kind you are using when you pick at a scab, or dig a massive pit in sand, or gut out a hole in a school table with a pair of scissors; it seems pointless and slow in hindsight, but you think to yourself later "I just sat there and did that for HOW long??". And you get this massive great hole as a result. I could see that patient, never-give-up psyche working in a Dwarf 24-7 (and I bet it would be cool).

04-17-2008, 01:37 PM	#21
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	The difference between re-birth and re-incarnation is, that in the case of re-birth the person becomes a child and to gain a happy childhood the memory of the former life has to be swept out. Therefore we are told, that the Fathers of the Dwarves got the memory of their former lives only back later when they were grown up again. A person that is re-incarnated, on the other hand, gets back his own body in the state before its destruction which had led to the end of its former life, with memory of its former life and all else. In my point of view there was one great difference, but Tolkien did never address this point: The Elves in Middle-Earth faded, but in Valinor they did not. Therefore, I believe, that the body created for the re-incarnation was an unfaded body, even if the Elve had before lived in Middle-Earth and its former body had already shown significant signs of fading. That might have been a further reason, why only very few re-incarnated Elves left Valinor. The Elves had not eternal life. They had life as long as Middle-Earth was inhabitable. If they lost their body during that time they went to Mandos not afterwards. What happened to them after Middle-Earth was ended they did not know. For Men on the other hand (and for Dwarves also) there was a promise of an after life even beyond the point of the last battle and the destruction of Middle-Earth. Is re-birth a gift? Is death to an unknown doom a gift? Is a live as long as the existence of Middle-Earth, with an unknown doom afterwards a gift? Who shall envy whom? We hear that Elves and Men did envy each other at times. Why should it be other wise with Men and Dwarves or Dwarves and Elves? Who would not wish (at times at least) back to the happy day of childhood with no responsibility and the freshness of so many experiences? Respectfully Findegil