Sauron and the Ruling Ring

Hello all. Being a new member of this forum, it would probably be most expedient for me to browse more topics than I already have before posting one of my own. But I must say that everyone seems so interesting I want to jump right in and *attempt* to discuss something that has always sat heavily on my mind regarding LoTR.
But before I do so, Greetings to all. My name is Liam, and I hope I'll be able to add positive things to this forum.

Now then, as you are all aware, the concept of Sauron and his evil is a central pillar of Tolkien's work (beyond the Silmarillion, which I've yet to read). Why, even "The Hobbit" has an important role to play beyond mere entertainment and the telling of the story of how the One Ring was found: its background is connected to Gandalf fearing Smaug the Golden being used in Sauron's rise-to-power, and therefore His need of Thorin Oakenshield who HIMSELF had a debt to pay to the Worm. As you are also all aware, Tolkien didn't just want to create a story that he felt people would be entertained by, he wanted to created a MYTH(ology) that went beyond a "mere" book; and hence it is amazingly intricate and amazingly WELL done.

But, as I've said before, something has always sat heavily on mind regarding LoTR and, more specifically, Sauron and his might.

Whilst I believe the concept of the Ruling Ring was ingenious and fitting of an evil mind like Sauron's, I am also confused by the simplicity of it and how "convenient" it was to destroy Sauron by destroying the ring in the Cracks of Doom.

Can anyone expand on a few things, then?

For instance, how exactly is this ring connected with Sauron's might insofar as it leading to his doom is concerned? Does he not have amazing power INDEPENDENT of the ring? I was under the impression this ring was filled WITH his power, that it was his tool to focus his might not the force that upheld it.

What is the nature of this rings power? More specifically, how could Saruman, for instance, use it to defeat Sauron and sit upon his throne? How is the answer to this affected by my first point?

And lastly, why is it this ring could not be found by Sauron? If his existence in Middle-earth was dependent on it remaining in tact, if they were so utterly close in "mind" and in "essence," why could Sauron not find this ring, even whilst it was in Mordor? His eye being focused upon Aragorn and his approaching forces seems to sidestep the issue that the ring's might was even more awakened due to its return to Mordor and Sauron surely would have been disturbed in some way by its presence in the same way that a "sightless" common hobbit could "feel" the presence of the Witch-king because of his evil and malice (and might). So why does this fallacy exist? DOES one, in fact, exist?

Hope this sets some keyboards to typing, as it's something that amazingly so interests me. **smiles**

[Olorin]

First of all, welcome to the Downs Liam! For a first topic, you've really sparked what will be a great conversation. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Now on to your inquiries, I have to admit, I am somewhat of a novice, but I shall do the best I can.

To answer your first question, Sauron "poured" all of his power and malice into the ring. This to me says that ring had his power. From this I educe that he must have made the ring to rule the other ring and to focus his power. Why else would he have put his power into a ring and not just kept it himself?

When the ring was cut from Sauron's hand, his body was destroyed because without the ring he had significantly less power. However, his spirit endured and still had enough power to rebuilt Baradur, et cetera. Still Sauron still needed the ring to regain his power and "cover the land in a second darkness."

Saruman thought that with the ring, he would have Sauron's power. Although this is illogical, because there is only one lord of the rings, Saruman was corrupted by power and wasn't thinking straight.

I think that without the ring Sauron didn't have enough power to be searching for the ring, concentrating on Aragorn and who knows what else at the same time. I think he must have known that the ring was close, but not exactly where.

That's all I can think of. Keep in mind, most of that is eductions. I hope this helps. If anyone has anything to add, or to correct me on something, please go ahead.

[obloquy]

Please see Ëalar and Incarnation, and my post here. There's also lots of stuff to read if you search.

[The Saucepan Man]

Welcome to the Downs, AstraeusPhoebus. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] And what a great topic for your first post. Very thought-provoking questions, indeed.

As I understand it, Sauron imbued the One Ring with part of his own spirit, so that it became an extension of him. With it, he was more powerful than before, but without it, he was less so. While the Ring remained in existence, that part of Sauron's spirit that he had poured into it remained in existence too, even though he was unable to draw on it while parted from it. But, when the Ring was destroyed, that part of Sauron that was within the Ring was destroyed too. And I would speculate that, once that happened, the remainder of Sauron's spirit was unable to survive. The destruction of the part led to the destruction of the whole (or, more accurately, its banishment to the void).

Saruman thought that with the ring, he would have Sauron's power. Although this is illogical, because there is only one lord of the rings, Saruman was corrupted by power and wasn't thinking straight.

I do not think that Saruman was wrong on this point, Olorin. After all, both Galadriel and Gandalf anticipated that they would supplant Sauron if they were to take the Ring. So why not Saruman? I tend to think that Galadriel might have been wrong on this, but not Gandalf and probably not Saruman.

We are given little information on the specific powers of the Ring. It rules the other Rings of Power and so enables Sauron to dominate the bearers of the Nine Rings of Power, enslaving them as the Ringwraiths. Clearly, it bestows invisibility (allowing the bearer to cross over into the wraith world) and incredible longetivity. It also has the power to corrupt (again, both Gandalf and Galadriel recognise that they would, in time, have become corrupted by it).

However, I am not altogether clear how it would have enabled the bearer to overthrow Sauron. Perhaps a more powerful bearer (such as Gandalf or Saruman) would be able to defeat that part of Sauron's spirit that dwelt within the Ring and thus defeat him entirely. Certainly, I doubt that the less powerful would be able to use it against Sauron. Boromir clearly thought that it could be used for this purpose, but he was probably deluded. Possibly it would give the bearer dominion over his servants, such as the Orcs and the Nazgul, but I doubt this as neither Bilbo or Frodo (or Gollum for that matter) were able to use it in this way.

As for your final question, it appears that Sauron (and his minions) are only drawn to the Ring when it is worn by the bearer. But you are right. There is a certain illogicality here, for the Ring does seem able to exercise its own power of corruption irrespective of whether it is being worn. This is apparent from its influence on Boromir and from the fact that Smeagol is driven to kill for it when Deagol is simply holding it in his hands.

Possibly it is correct to say that Sauron did not have sufficient power to deal with Gondor (fearing the returning King) while at the same time searching for the Ring, but that paints a rather weak picture of Sauron. The significance of Aragorn challenging Sauron via the Palantir is that it forces him to act earlier than he otherwise might have done and empty Mordor of his armies. Similarly with the march to the Black Gate, although this does also have the effect of distracting him. Nevertheless, I think we have to accept that Sauron simply cannot locate the Ring with any accuracy unless it is worn by the bearer.

[ May 11, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

Thank you for your very kind welcomes and for your replies. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

For the life of me, I won't understand why it is that I didn't perceive how much SPECULATION is required to answer some of my points. We're not aware of so many things (whilst at the same time being given such extensive and exhaustive information about others) that it's almost annoying that Tolkien didn't give enough information on what (to me) is the most important aspect of the LoTR; namely, the nature of the Ring in relation to Sauron.

"As I understand it, Sauron imbued the One Ring with part of his own spirit, so that it became an extension of him."

I agree with this point to an extent, and I believe it is the most important in this matter. On the one hand, the Ring showed, probably above all else, the exact same will-to-dominate that Sauron possessed. On the other, it could be argued that this will could be translated as "evil"; and the Ring was merely imbued with EVIL as opposed to Saurons actual PERSONALITY; insofar as the two can be seperated, of course.

Where my agreement ends is simply in the matter of Sauron extending HIMSELF or his SPIRIT or part of it into the Ring. Of course, this leads one to questions one isn't adequetly armed by Tolkien to attack. But, even taking much for granted, this simply appears unnecessary. Further, if the Ring possesses Sauron's spirit, it would be (in my opinion) utterly impossible for it to be lost from him; a problem that would have no answer.

But how did the Ring's destruction directly lead to Sauron's doom, then?

Assuming we trade the "spirit" argument for the "knowledge-of-the-ring's-whereabouts" point, I think the only possible answer lies in topics of his ability to take form and HOW he's surviving in Middle-earth.

There are other's who know more about this than I.

But it might be that the Ring, beyond being his tool for domination, was his foothold into that particular realm of existance (Middle-earth); and once it was destroyed, he had no other link to it.

I've read Tolkien mention the fact that, after the second age, Sauron was "sleeping"; I've read him use similar terminology for death. I've read him speak of Morgoth's Balrog of Moria in similar terms. All-in-all, it implies "being awakened" again.

So was the Ring's malice and evil (that Sauron gave it) the force that attracted Sauron's spirit back to Middle-earth and that "woke" him?

I'm afraid I'm going to have to stop there, as I am finding questions only reading will answer; perhaps someone can fill in some holes?

P.S. This could be another topic in itself, but take the chief Nazgul's "death" into consideration: How is it that a wraith was cut from Middle-earth by the stab of a sword? I really don't understand the cutting of corners in these matters after so much energy was spent in building up a three-dimensional world with its own, complicated history. And yet, do Sauron's demise and the way in which his Witch-king was destroyed relate in some way? Was it truly so simple to remove such powers?

[ May 10, 2003: Message edited by: AstraeusPhoebus ]

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron , become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place. This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants. There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved , Sauron's own being would be diminished to a vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he never contemplated nor feared. The Ring was unbreakable to any smithcraft less than his own. It was indissoluble in any fire, save the undying subterranean fire where it was made - and that was unapproachable, in Mordor. Also, so great was the Ring's power of lust, that anyone who used it became mastered by it; it was beyond the strength of any will (even his own) to injure it, cast it away or neglect it. So he thought.

From letter #131 to Milton Waldman

Essentially, then, Sauron's power, once built into the Ring, was separate from his person and therefore able to be usurped or dispersed by others; but only by those sufficiently strong-willed to command it rather than becoming its slave as did Gollum. It is unlikely that Galadriel had the strength to do this (I expect that her apparent belief that she could was either a delusion of the Ring or an attempt to demonstrate to Frodo the dangers of giving it to one of the Wise), but Gandalf might have done, and Saruman certainly thought that he could bend it to his will. Unfortunately the Ring corrupts of and by itself: any works attempted with it would inevitably turn to evil, which is why both Gandalf and Galadriel ultimately reject it. Tom Bombadil is unaffected, according to another of Tolkien's letters, because he has no interest in what it represents:

...but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. but if you have, as it were taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the question of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless.

In other words, true victory over Sauron, such as that in The Lord of the Rings can only be achieved by the utter rejection of his tools and methods, as exemplified by the One Ring. Rather a neat device in my opinion, and very much from the heart.