The small People - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Manardariel · 05-08-2003, 01:25 PM

I believe that all men and women [...] that love and hope and live and die are history.
From Désirée.

Read that qoute? Now, I´ve been thinking about this for quite a while. Have you noticed that in Tolkien´s works it alwys seems to be princes and nobility that are the "big point"? Think about it: Luthien was a princess, Legolas a prince, and Bilbo and Frodo are "gentlehobbits", whatever that is.

Every time I RPG I wonder why Tolkien never discribed the fate of the common people. We never find out how the people that DIDN´T destroy rings or command armies. What happened to those that were simple farmers, drawn into a war they didn´t understand? Tolien never said anything about them, it´s like he forgot. (Though I´m sure he didn´t...)

Does anyone agree/disagree?

Lalaith · 05-08-2003, 01:35 PM

Yes, the Fellowship were pretty aristocratic, really. Even Merry and Pippin were posh, hobbit-wise. But Sam was a worthy representative of the common people.
Part of the reason most Tolkien characters are of such "noble" stock is that he was following the tradition of heroic literature, which was all about kings, queens and their offspring.

Maeglin · 05-08-2003, 02:10 PM

Sam certenly was nothing but a common gardener and not a "noble hobbit". Surely, Frodo lived in a nice house but he was a normal person in my opinion. You probably should look to how commonly the character acts and not how much of a common title she/he has. It's all very much about getting the story together. If Aragorn was to be revieled as a poor farmer and just wanted to get home to his farm outside Minas Tirith the story might would have lost some of it's greatness.

[ May 08, 2003: Message edited by: Maeglin ]

Legolas · 05-08-2003, 02:17 PM

He didn't forget.

Those ordinary people are left out because Tolkien "translated" these stories from the history books of the elves and hobbits. Bilbo wrote The Hobbit and Frodo/Sam wrote The Lord of the Rings. Frodo and the other hobbits are ordinary people and would not have been such a large part had they not encountered extraordinary circumstances. It's a legendarium - it's about the most exciting things that happened to the most important people. No other mythologies are about the common people and their experiences in farming, etc. It's to be expected.

[ May 08, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Hans Markus Rod · 05-08-2003, 03:06 PM

Tolkien describes the fate of Beregond a common citizen and a soldier of Gondor. During the battle of the Fields of Cormallen Beregond gets hit by a troll, but he survives. After the crowning of king Elessar Beregond gets back his job as a soldier in the kings lifegurd and he gets spared of punishment for "deceiving" Denethor.

Birdland · 05-08-2003, 11:44 PM

Focusing on the "common folk" as a source of history is a fairly recent phenomena, in fiction and non-fiction. For most of recorded history it was the actions of the nobles, (and later the landed gentry) that were thought to be important. Farmers, craftsmen, and other "working stiffs" were not considered to be worthy of attention, except for the occasional comic relief.

Actually, Tolkien's focus on Samwise, his contribution and the rise of his family, would have been considered rather cutting edge for the time. "The servant is the hero? Preposterous!"

Atariel · 05-09-2003, 06:18 AM

Actually, I suppose you could argue that the Bagginses were hobbit-nobility. Bilbo was the son of a Took, an 'old money' family. Frodo was part-Brandybuck, and they were also 'very old money'. In an age when snobby women are always banging on about Nouveaux Riches (aka Posh and Becks), and pretty much only the aristocrats pass as old money, i think it's safe to say that the Bagginses were noble.

Maeglin · 05-09-2003, 03:46 PM

Then again. It's just titles..

Legolas · 05-10-2003, 03:56 PM

"Noble" but not particularly noteworthy.

Quote:

After the crowning of king Elessar Beregond gets back his job as a soldier in the kings lifegurd and he gets spared of punishment for "deceiving" Denethor.

He was actually sent to Ithilien to serve Faramir there; a new job for him.

The Steward and the King:

Quote:

‘All penalty is remitted for your valour in battle, and still more because all that you did was for the love of the Lord Faramir. Nonetheless you must leave the Guard of the Citadel, and you must go forth from the City of Minas Tirith.’
Then the blood left Beregond’s face, and he was stricken to the heart and bowed his head. But the King said.:
‘So it must be, for you are appointed to the White Company, the Guard of Faramir, Prince of Ithilien, and you shall be its captain and dwell in Emyn Arnen in honour and peace, and in the service of him for whom you risked all, to save him from death.’

Scott · 05-10-2003, 07:59 PM

Tolkien himself came from a fairly prestigious or "posh" family. I always took his typecasting of heroes as more noble people to only be a natural byproduct of this. A person writes what they know. Besides, how noble would a simple nobody sound as the hero? Yes, Sam was a simple nobody, but he wasn't really the main focus, now was he. As it was mentioned before, Tolkien was writing something that was supposed to have been from history, not the dreams of the oppressed. Not trying to sound mean, but I don't think that Tolkien wanted his heroes to be like the back alley loiterers who helped along the industrial revolution he so passionately disliked.
And as for Beregond... he was even of a pretty high status. Because he was a part of Minas Tirith's high guard, we can deduce that he had Numenorien blood coursing through his veins.
Time is cut short, and so too is this post, but I'll probably expand later.
Scott

Raefindel · 05-10-2003, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Every time I RPG I wonder why Tolkien never discribed the fate of the common people. We never find out how the people that DIDN´T destroy rings or command armies. What happened to those that were simple farmers, drawn into a war they didn´t understand?

I'm not sure I agree with this, Manardariel.
Tolkien describes the life and sometimes the death of each of the members of the fellowship, though, it isn't part of the story, it's in the apendices, so I guess from that viewpoint it could be argued that you are right.

Iarwain · 05-10-2003, 09:37 PM

One comment.

ON GENTLEHOBBITS:

The word is a clear derivative of "gentlemen", which really says nothing other than that Bilbo and Frodo were land owners, or (in a more modern sense) that they were kind and courtious folk. Gentlehobbit is not a title of nobility, any more than saying "madam" is part of addressing a queen.

Iarwain

[ May 11, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

Gorwingel · 05-10-2003, 10:37 PM

I never really thought of Frodo as a "noble" hobbit. I thought of him "noble" in the way he acted, but he had no power like a king (well none of the hobbits really had that power in the Shire). Ever since I read the books I always thought of Frodo as a regular hobbit who has to do something that no one should ever have to do but it has to be done. So I always thought of him as rich, but not noble (the only thing that I thought really made him different was that he had a gardener)

Additionally I never really thought of Aragorn as extremely noble because he has been gone from his kingdom for a really long time in exile so he had kind of lost some of his "nobleness" (except for in the way he acted)

Beren87 · 05-10-2003, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Every time I RPG I wonder why Tolkien never discribed the fate of the common people. We never find out how the people that DIDN´T destroy rings or command armies.

'Cause it woulda been boring. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Amarie of the Vanyar · 05-11-2003, 09:22 AM

Tolkien has also some other stories where the main characters are 'common' people, like 'Farmer Giles of Ham'; Niggle from 'Tree and Leaf'; and the 'Smith of Wooton Major' [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

And, in the Middle Earth stories, you can also find some characters that are not aristocratic, but that play important roles, even among the elves, like Beleg, Mablung, Eöl the Dark Elf, ... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Aule · 05-11-2003, 10:02 AM

Wouldn't Merry and Pippin be thought of as Nobility, as i thought they were somehoe related to the Thain.

Beren87 · 05-11-2003, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Additionally I never really thought of Aragorn as extremely noble because he has been gone from his kingdom for a really long time in exile so he had kind of lost some of his "nobleness"

Nobleness isn't like a marble, you can't lose it. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Elmo · 04-13-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

every time I RPG I wonder why Tolkien never discribed the fate of the common people. We never find out how the people that DIDN´T destroy rings or command armies. What happened to those that were simple farmers, drawn into a war they didn´t understand?

This forgets what happens at the cross roads when Aragorn sent away the people who refused to go to Mordor. It shows Tolkien had some understanding of what it was like to be so. I bet he wished soldiers in the First World War were given the same choice.

05-08-2003, 01:25 PM	#1
Manardariel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 807	The small People I believe that all men and women [...] that love and hope and live and die are history. From Désirée. Read that qoute? Now, I´ve been thinking about this for quite a while. Have you noticed that in Tolkien´s works it alwys seems to be princes and nobility that are the "big point"? Think about it: Luthien was a princess, Legolas a prince, and Bilbo and Frodo are "gentlehobbits", whatever that is. Every time I RPG I wonder why Tolkien never discribed the fate of the common people. We never find out how the people that DIDN´T destroy rings or command armies. What happened to those that were simple farmers, drawn into a war they didn´t understand? Tolien never said anything about them, it´s like he forgot. (Though I´m sure he didn´t...) Does anyone agree/disagree? __________________ Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)\|FanFic Dream City

05-08-2003, 01:35 PM	#2
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Yes, the Fellowship were pretty aristocratic, really. Even Merry and Pippin were posh, hobbit-wise. But Sam was a worthy representative of the common people. Part of the reason most Tolkien characters are of such "noble" stock is that he was following the tradition of heroic literature, which was all about kings, queens and their offspring. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

05-08-2003, 02:10 PM	#3
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	Sam certenly was nothing but a common gardener and not a "noble hobbit". Surely, Frodo lived in a nice house but he was a normal person in my opinion. You probably should look to how commonly the character acts and not how much of a common title she/he has. It's all very much about getting the story together. If Aragorn was to be revieled as a poor farmer and just wanted to get home to his farm outside Minas Tirith the story might would have lost some of it's greatness. [ May 08, 2003: Message edited by: Maeglin ] __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

05-08-2003, 02:17 PM	#4
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	He didn't forget. Those ordinary people are left out because Tolkien "translated" these stories from the history books of the elves and hobbits. Bilbo wrote The Hobbit and Frodo/Sam wrote The Lord of the Rings. Frodo and the other hobbits are ordinary people and would not have been such a large part had they not encountered extraordinary circumstances. It's a legendarium - it's about the most exciting things that happened to the most important people. No other mythologies are about the common people and their experiences in farming, etc. It's to be expected. [ May 08, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

05-08-2003, 03:06 PM	#5
Hans Markus Rod Pile O'Bones Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Asker Posts: 23	Tolkien describes the fate of Beregond a common citizen and a soldier of Gondor. During the battle of the Fields of Cormallen Beregond gets hit by a troll, but he survives. After the crowning of king Elessar Beregond gets back his job as a soldier in the kings lifegurd and he gets spared of punishment for "deceiving" Denethor. __________________ 'In this bloody dawn I will wash my sword, to call the spirit of vengeance, to deny my wisdom for anger, to break the scream of the silent foe and to be the Son of Doom.'

05-08-2003, 11:44 PM	#6
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Focusing on the "common folk" as a source of history is a fairly recent phenomena, in fiction and non-fiction. For most of recorded history it was the actions of the nobles, (and later the landed gentry) that were thought to be important. Farmers, craftsmen, and other "working stiffs" were not considered to be worthy of attention, except for the occasional comic relief. Actually, Tolkien's focus on Samwise, his contribution and the rise of his family, would have been considered rather cutting edge for the time. "The servant is the hero? Preposterous!"

05-09-2003, 06:18 AM	#7
Atariel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Valimar Posts: 68	Actually, I suppose you could argue that the Bagginses were hobbit-nobility. Bilbo was the son of a Took, an 'old money' family. Frodo was part-Brandybuck, and they were also 'very old money'. In an age when snobby women are always banging on about Nouveaux Riches (aka Posh and Becks), and pretty much only the aristocrats pass as old money, i think it's safe to say that the Bagginses were noble. __________________ Nai tiruvantel, ar varyuvantel i valar tielyanna nu vilya

05-09-2003, 03:46 PM	#8
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	Then again. It's just titles.. __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

05-10-2003, 07:59 PM	#10
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	Tolkien himself came from a fairly prestigious or "posh" family. I always took his typecasting of heroes as more noble people to only be a natural byproduct of this. A person writes what they know. Besides, how noble would a simple nobody sound as the hero? Yes, Sam was a simple nobody, but he wasn't really the main focus, now was he. As it was mentioned before, Tolkien was writing something that was supposed to have been from history, not the dreams of the oppressed. Not trying to sound mean, but I don't think that Tolkien wanted his heroes to be like the back alley loiterers who helped along the industrial revolution he so passionately disliked. And as for Beregond... he was even of a pretty high status. Because he was a part of Minas Tirith's high guard, we can deduce that he had Numenorien blood coursing through his veins. Time is cut short, and so too is this post, but I'll probably expand later. Scott __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

05-10-2003, 09:37 PM	#12
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	One comment. ON GENTLEHOBBITS: The word is a clear derivative of "gentlemen", which really says nothing other than that Bilbo and Frodo were land owners, or (in a more modern sense) that they were kind and courtious folk. Gentlehobbit is not a title of nobility, any more than saying "madam" is part of addressing a queen. Iarwain [ May 11, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ] __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

05-10-2003, 10:37 PM	#13
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	I never really thought of Frodo as a "noble" hobbit. I thought of him "noble" in the way he acted, but he had no power like a king (well none of the hobbits really had that power in the Shire). Ever since I read the books I always thought of Frodo as a regular hobbit who has to do something that no one should ever have to do but it has to be done. So I always thought of him as rich, but not noble (the only thing that I thought really made him different was that he had a gardener) Additionally I never really thought of Aragorn as extremely noble because he has been gone from his kingdom for a really long time in exile so he had kind of lost some of his "nobleness" (except for in the way he acted) __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

05-11-2003, 09:22 AM	#15
Amarie of the Vanyar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Valinor Posts: 215	Tolkien has also some other stories where the main characters are 'common' people, like 'Farmer Giles of Ham'; Niggle from 'Tree and Leaf'; and the 'Smith of Wooton Major' [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] And, in the Middle Earth stories, you can also find some characters that are not aristocratic, but that play important roles, even among the elves, like Beleg, Mablung, Eöl the Dark Elf, ... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

05-11-2003, 10:02 AM	#16
Aule Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hammering away in Valinor Posts: 126	Wouldn't Merry and Pippin be thought of as Nobility, as i thought they were somehoe related to the Thain. __________________ For him that is pitiless, the deeds of pity are ever strange and beyond reckoning - of Melkor before his final downfall