Hobbiton Anachronisms, or, Were the Hobbits ahead of their Time? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

LePetitChoux · 01-24-2003, 05:07 PM

Today, the Hobbit, illustrated by Alan Lee arrived in the post, and I've flicked through the pages, and on the second page the words "they [Hobbits] have become rare and shy of the big People, as they call us." and "...when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants..."

Now, I'd like to ask, wasn't the closest thing to an Elephant in M-E at that time a Mûmak? So, therefore it follows that elephants wouldn't have evolved yet. Also, notice the whole thing is in the PRESENT tense, therefore implying that Hobbits are still alive. But surely an end of the world is supposed to have happened?

Or am I just being silly and nit-picking at empty words?

Galadrie1 · 01-24-2003, 05:26 PM

The Hobbit lacks the 'historical' detail that The Lord of the Rings and other Tolkien books have. I don't really like to compare the details in it to anything else he's written, as it's not very historically correct; It's totally different than LotR, and shouldn't really be put in the same 'group' as it, in my opinion.... But that's just me. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

**The Saucepan Man** · 01-24-2003, 06:18 PM

Seeming anachronisms are not the preserve of The Hobbit. There is a great thread on modern day references in JRRT's works here.

Personally, I think that most of the items discussed on this thread (clocks, football, potatoes etc) can be explained by the fact that the world described by JRRT is a different world from ours. It is not set in any particular time of our (recorded) history. So, it was perfectly open to JRRT to include whatever items he chose in his tales, even if they might seem slightly anachronistic.

The one that sticks out is the description (in A Long-Expected Party) of Gandalf's firework-dragon passing like "an express train". If there were such things as trains in ME, you would expect that people would build and use them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

LePetitChoux, your addition of "elephant" is, I think, an entirely valid one. We are presented in LotR with Oliphaunts, which seem very different from elephants as we know them. Perhaps this could be explained as a matter of translation (oliphaunt translates to elephant). Or possibly there was more than one elephantine species on ME?

[ January 24, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

eleanor_niphredil · 01-25-2003, 05:11 AM

For one thing, both the Hobbit and ther beginning of LOTR where writen for children, so he would have had to use examples that they would understand. Saying that we made noises like an Oliphant would just confuse them. I think that these references are made for the sake of the reader, not as part of the story.

By the way, I can totaly see the Fellowship travelling to Mordor on an express train. Sam running behind Frodos train when he splits from the rest of the fellowship!

[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: eleanor_niphredil ]

LePetitChoux · 01-25-2003, 05:12 AM

I completely agree with you! I'm not really as grouchy as I seem...I was just wondering...But I just started LotR this morning, and hey presto! read the train bit and was just going to post that! Hmm...

LePetitChoux · 01-25-2003, 07:38 AM

Also, Bilbo is described as opening a drawer smelling of moth-balls. But mothballs were made of Napthalene, which is a by-product of the oil industry. Hmm... Middle-Earth Oil?

Guinevere · 01-25-2003, 08:01 AM

Here is what Tom Shippey writes in his excellent book "Tolkien, author of the century" :

"The fact is that hobbits are, and always remain, highly anachronistic in the ancient world of Middle-earth. That indeed is their main function, for one might note that by their anachronism they engage a problem faced and solved in not dissimilar ways by several writers of historical novels. In setting a work in some distant time, an author may well find that the gap between that time and the reader's modern awareness is too wide to be easily bridged; and accordingly a figure essentially modern in attitudes and sentiment is imported into the historical world, to guide the reader's reactions, to help the reader feel "what it would be like" to be there."

So the hobbits actually bridge the gap between the ancient world and the modern one.
I guess that this is just the reason why it is so much easier to read the LotR than the Silmarillion!

[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ]

[ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ]

01-24-2003, 05:07 PM	#1
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	Hobbiton Anachronisms, or, Were the Hobbits ahead of their Time? Today, the Hobbit, illustrated by Alan Lee arrived in the post, and I've flicked through the pages, and on the second page the words "they [Hobbits] have become rare and shy of the big People, as they call us." and "...when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants..." Now, I'd like to ask, wasn't the closest thing to an Elephant in M-E at that time a Mûmak? So, therefore it follows that elephants wouldn't have evolved yet. Also, notice the whole thing is in the PRESENT tense, therefore implying that Hobbits are still alive. But surely an end of the world is supposed to have happened? Or am I just being silly and nit-picking at empty words? __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

01-24-2003, 05:26 PM	#2
Galadrie1 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: The wrong place at the wrong time. Posts: 385	The Hobbit lacks the 'historical' detail that The Lord of the Rings and other Tolkien books have. I don't really like to compare the details in it to anything else he's written, as it's not very historically correct; It's totally different than LotR, and shouldn't really be put in the same 'group' as it, in my opinion.... But that's just me. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ "For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy. But this, if you will, is the magic of Galadriel."

01-24-2003, 06:18 PM	#3
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Seeming anachronisms are not the preserve of The Hobbit. There is a great thread on modern day references in JRRT's works here. Personally, I think that most of the items discussed on this thread (clocks, football, potatoes etc) can be explained by the fact that the world described by JRRT is a different world from ours. It is not set in any particular time of our (recorded) history. So, it was perfectly open to JRRT to include whatever items he chose in his tales, even if they might seem slightly anachronistic. The one that sticks out is the description (in A Long-Expected Party) of Gandalf's firework-dragon passing like "an express train". If there were such things as trains in ME, you would expect that people would build and use them. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] LePetitChoux, your addition of "elephant" is, I think, an entirely valid one. We are presented in LotR with Oliphaunts, which seem very different from elephants as we know them. Perhaps this could be explained as a matter of translation (oliphaunt translates to elephant). Or possibly there was more than one elephantine species on ME? [ January 24, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ] __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

01-25-2003, 05:11 AM	#4
eleanor_niphredil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: england Posts: 805	For one thing, both the Hobbit and ther beginning of LOTR where writen for children, so he would have had to use examples that they would understand. Saying that we made noises like an Oliphant would just confuse them. I think that these references are made for the sake of the reader, not as part of the story. By the way, I can totaly see the Fellowship travelling to Mordor on an express train. Sam running behind Frodos train when he splits from the rest of the fellowship! [ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: eleanor_niphredil ] __________________ Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to spend my time on this forum. And by the way, for any of you turning into a penguin, stop it. ~* I am Pippin took in the Female Fellowship*~

01-25-2003, 05:12 AM	#5
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	I completely agree with you! I'm not really as grouchy as I seem...I was just wondering...But I just started LotR this morning, and hey presto! read the train bit and was just going to post that! Hmm... __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

01-25-2003, 07:38 AM	#6
LePetitChoux Vegetable of Doom Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: London Posts: 720	Also, Bilbo is described as opening a drawer smelling of moth-balls. But mothballs were made of Napthalene, which is a by-product of the oil industry. Hmm... Middle-Earth Oil? __________________ je suis une bonne odeur

01-25-2003, 08:01 AM	#7
Guinevere Banshee of Camelot Join Date: May 2002 Location: Switzerland Posts: 5,830	Here is what Tom Shippey writes in his excellent book "Tolkien, author of the century" : "The fact is that hobbits are, and always remain, highly anachronistic in the ancient world of Middle-earth. That indeed is their main function, for one might note that by their anachronism they engage a problem faced and solved in not dissimilar ways by several writers of historical novels. In setting a work in some distant time, an author may well find that the gap between that time and the reader's modern awareness is too wide to be easily bridged; and accordingly a figure essentially modern in attitudes and sentiment is imported into the historical world, to guide the reader's reactions, to help the reader feel "what it would be like" to be there." So the hobbits actually bridge the gap between the ancient world and the modern one. I guess that this is just the reason why it is so much easier to read the LotR than the Silmarillion! [ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ] [ January 25, 2003: Message edited by: Guinevere ] __________________ Yes! "wish-fulfilment dreams" we spin to cheat our timid hearts, and ugly Fact defeat!