Mirror, Mirror - Telling the Future in LotR

[Estelyn Telcontar]

The Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them.

What is the role of prophecy in LotR? I’m reading Shippey’s “Tolkien – Author of the Century”, and he compares it to Shakespeare’s use of prophecy in Macbeth, saying that Tolkien’s view is different than that of Shakespeare’s. I must say that Galadriel’s above statement reminds me more of a different myth – the story of Oedipus. If memory serves me rightly, in trying to prevent the prophecy spoken of him, he created the very circumstances that enabled its fulfillment.

Now, Tolkien lets us know that the Elves are reluctant to give advice about the future. Gildor says to Frodo:

Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill.

And Galadriel’s mirror is not a reliable source of knowledge about the future, as she says herself. So where does Tolkien use prophetic statements in the book and how, if at all, are they fulfilled?

I will start us off with the example that is very closely related to Macbeth (and incidently goes with the current Nazgûl theme) - the death of the Witch King. I looked for a specific statement of prophecy, but found only what he said to Eowyn in the battle:

Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!

Does anyone know if there is a more detailed account of that prophecy anywhere?

[lathspell]

Yes there is a more detailed account of that somewhere and my bet would be somewhere in the appendices concerned with Arthedain and the war with Angmar. It was Glorfindel who pronounced this prophecy; he said it when the King was about to follow the defeated Witch-King. It was something like 'Far off is his doom and not by the hand of a man will he be slain.'

Another good example of a prophecy in Middle Earth is the Doom of Mandos, simple and to the point, and more importantly: very true.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

I think prophecy in LOTR is, if it goes the way it is, this will happen.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Aldagrim, could you explain that more precisely?

[Arwen Imladris]

I think what Aldagrim means is that what is prophisised in LOTR happens if the people involved keep on doing what they were doing.

On second thought, I don't think that made much more sence. Oh well.

If what I think Aldagrim means is what he means, I don't think that it is correct. Not all of the things in the mirror came true.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

(Aside to all Black Adder fans - dear me, I used the word "Macbeth" twice in my opening post; oops, I did it again!! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I know, I should have said "the Scottish play"... [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] )

[Kuruharan]

The Elves perhaps have a degree of understanding of the Music and the events contained in it. In that way they are able to forcast certain future events. However, their knowledge is perhaps a bit hazy, and that leaves room for misinterpretation and mistakes on the part of the Elves and the few people that they advise. Thus, their reluctance to give advice or to allow their foresight totally guide their actions.

[lathspell]

I may be wrong in this, but is it that only the Calaquendi can predict things?... the only ones I've heard of are glorfindel about the Witchking, Galadriel told Legolas to be beware of the sea, Elrond who send his sons and the Dunedain to the aid of the Fellowship, though Elrond ain't Calaquendi for he hasn't been on Aman.

Also their is the Numenorean King who foretold that when the White Tree of Numenor should fall, then the line of Kings would fail as well.

Is there any logic in how Tolkien chose the ones who did prophecies?

greetings,
lathspell

[Kuruharan]

Is there any logic in how Tolkien chose the ones who did prophecies?

Being illogical or irrational (meaning beyond the ability of the mind to grasp it completely) might be part of the whole deal. It's probably not meant to totally make sense.

Of course, saying this doesn't really help much. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[akhtene]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] A good prophet (or a politician) is the one who can tell what what is sure to happen, and then to plausibly explain why it hasn't. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

But , seriously, was there any prophesy (or whatever) about Gandalf entering Moria? As Aragorn seems really worried for the wizard

It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!

So does Aragorn know something? And why Gandalf himself unruffled?

[Kuruharan]

A good prophet (or a politician) is the one who can tell what what is sure to happen, and then to plausibly explain why it hasn't.

Very true.

For some reason, I never thought of Aragorn's statement about Gandalf as being prophecy. I just thought that he was really worried. Everyone knew that "something" was there. They did not know it was a Balrog, but they knew "something" was there.

On the other hand, I can't think of a explicit reason why it couldn't be prophecy.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

We do find a reference to someone who is as close to a prophet as Tolkien writes about – Malbeth the Seer! (Well-known to all of us on the Barrow-Downs through his always clear, concise and practical sayings! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Additionally, he appears to be the patron saint of the site’s chatroom! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] ) He is first mentioned by Aragorn who quotes his words about the Paths of the Dead, reminded of them by Elrond:

Over the land there lies a long shadow,
Westward reaching wings of darkness.
The Tower trembles; to the tombs of kings
doom approaches. The Dead awaken;
for the hour is come for the oathbreakers:
at the Stone of Erech they shall stand again
and hear there a horn in the hills ringing.
Whose shall the horn be? Who shall call them
from the grey twilight, the forgotten people?
The heir of him to whom the oath they swore.
From the North shall he come, need shall drive him:
he shall pass the Door to the Paths of the Dead.

There is another reference to him in Appendix A: He foretold that Arvedui would be the last king of the northern kingdom. This prophecy is interesting:

Arvedui you shall call him, for he will be the last in Arthedain. Though a choice will come to the Dúnedain, and if they take the one that seems less hopeful, then your son will change his name and become king of a great realm. If not, then much sorrow and many lives of men shall pass, until the Dúnedain arise and are united again.

I looked to see if I could find out which choice is meant there, but didn’t see it. Can anyone tell more about a possible choice for the good that would have changed the course of Middle-earth’s history? Neither the Silmarillion nor Unfinished Tales have any reference to Malbeth; perhaps someone who has HoME or Tolkien’s letters can contribute additional information.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

What I had meant up there was this future is a possible future. Like in Back to the Future. Also, on the prophets thing, not all of the elves could see the future, just some.

[Daniel Telcontar]

The choice concerned with Arvedui is that of the Gondor leaders. When the King of Gondor is slain in battle, Arvedui sends message stating that he should be the new king of Gondor, thus uniting Gondor and Arthedain. Had that happened, Arvedui would have had an army great enough to defeat the witch-king and Angmar, and put Cardolan and Rhudaur under his rule. Then he would rule both Arnor and Gondor, a great realm indeed. But the leaders of Gondor chose to make Earnil king instead, which seemed to be the better choice. And so the witch-king were able to conquer Arthedain, and Arvedui was indeed the last king of Arthedain.

[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel Telcontar ]

[doug*platypus]

I know, I should have said "the Scottish play"...

That's okay, Estelyn, I believe that's only if you're acting in it. See, I'll prove it... Macbeth Macbeth Mac*OW!!! my foot!! #$$@*&!!!

I haven't studied Macbeth in depth (by which I mean I wasn't paying attention in English), so how exactly is prophecy used there? I may venture a guess that the old hags on the withered heath plant the kernels of ideas in Macbeth and Banquo, creating self-fulfilling prophecies?

If this is the case, then certainly Tolkien treats (or should I say uses) prophecy in a different manner. My thinking is along the same lines as that of Aldagrim and Arwen, but I would go even further. I think that prophecies and insights in Arda are unshakeably accurate (at least as far as we are shown). Malbeth (Paths of the Dead and Arvedui), Gandalf (Gollum), Faramir (Gollum), Frodo (Sam and kids), Glorfindel (Witchy) and Saruman (the fates of Frodo and Galadriel) all make perfect predictions.

Galadriel does indeed state that "some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them" but I don't see this manifesting itself in Tolkien's writings. It seems more like a clause or a footnote, so that even though all prophecies are fulfilled, The Professor has still made an important point. You can't be always be completely certain of what the future holds (even if you are a Vala). Even the very wise cannot see all ends, because (as in the case of Frodo's failure being doomed to happen) they are not The Writer of the Story, or Ilúvatar.

[davem]

I think Verlyn Flieger's 'A Question of Time' maybe relevant. Basically, she explores Tolkien's use of Time, & the influence of the theories of JW Dunne.
http://www.greenmanreview.com/a.question.of.time.htm

There are numerous incidents throughout the Legendarium of Characters experiencing future events - Frodo' dream of the Undying Lands in Bombadil's house, the same thing he sees at the end of the book, or Aragorn at Cerin Amroth, feeling himself both there at that moment & at the same time back with Arwen.

Its as if Frodo's higher/spiritual self is able to 'look down' on his life & percieve it as a whole, & thus to 'tune into' any particular event (like an observer looking at a landscape from an aircraft, seeing a complete river in a single moment, whereas a traveler in a boat would experience the journey down river as a process/movement in time. So Frodo's 'vision' of the Undying Lands is not a vision of a 'future' which hasn't yet happened, but a glimpse of an event which in some sense already 'is'. Perhaps all the 'prophecies' & visions of the future throughout the Legendarium are of this kind.

How this relates to the Music of the Ainur, which is playing out throughout the history of Middle Earth is an interesting question. The Music sets out the course of events in the world. Water contains echoes of the music. The Music is somehow accesible to those sensitive enough to tune into it. So, prophecy in M.E. is due to certain sensitive individuals 'tuning' into the Music, or its echoes, through dreams or visions. Or, perhaps Illuvatar grants these visions, because Illuvatar would have knowledge of all events throughout the history of ME. The Music at least makes prophecy within ME logically possible.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:24 AM January 16, 2004: Message edited by: davem ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Davem and others,

This whole topic has always intrigued me, especially since it implicitly raises the whole question of "predestination". What is truly free and what is ordained? Or is all prophecy similar to what Galadriel says: something that may come about but is not certain.

What about Grey Havens where Frodo "foretells' Sam's children with a fair amount of accuracy, as well as his references to Sam as mayor? Is Sam so much a part of Frodo that you (Davem) would consider this also to be a case where Frodo can glimpse his own life (and that of his close friend) in its entirity?

Regarding "foretelling" as possibly connected with the Music of Creation... That's a very interesting way of viewing this, especially in terms of Elves. But there is also the chance, even likelihood, of Men acting outside the Music. Perhaps prophecy can only concern those events where Men's unpredictable actions are unlikely to have a determining role? Yet Frodo's reference to Sam having children and being the mayor wouldn't seem to fall in that category, but rather solely within the province of Men (i.e, or hobbits as their relatives).

There is another intriguing question. If Frodo is so broken that he must leave the Shire, how is he capable of reaching the higher spiritual state that is implied by being able to make such an accurate prediction? Davem's suggestion of Illuvatar as the one who grants such visions seems to imply that the person be able to tune in to a spiritual side of themselves, which most of us can not do. Or is a high spiritual state not required? What about the curselike predictions of baddies in the Silm that do end up coming true? Or even the words of Saruman at the Scouring?

But do not expect me to wish you health and long life. You will have neither. But that is not my doing, I merely foretell.

One could indeed argue whether or not the above is a "true telling" based on one's view of Frodo's journey to Elvenhome.

I have raised many questions but no answers, and wonder if others can help with these.

[davem]

Regarding "foretelling" as possibly connected with the Music of Creation... That's a very interesting way of viewing this, especially in terms of Elves. But there is also the chance, even likelihood, of Men acting outside the Music. Perhaps prophecy can only concern those events where Men's unpredictable actions are unlikely to have a determining role? Yet Frodo's reference to Sam having children and being the mayor wouldn't seem to fall in that category, but rather solely within the province of Men (i.e, or hobbits as their relatives).

But Illuvatar's knowledge isn't bound by the Music. So Illuvatar would know every decision which is made from his position outside time. Illuvatar would be in the position of an observer in the aircraft, watching the whole history of ME in a single instant. He could permit a glimpse of that vision to any being he chose, & the person he chose would not have to be what we consider 'spiritual', only suitable in Illuvatar's eyes. Dunne seems to have thought that we all exist in a 'higher state' & have access to the Music (or whatever the equivalent of that would be in this world. Charles Williams said we are all strands in kind of cosmic, spiritual web, & that 'The Strand exists for the Web, not the Web for the Strand'). So, in dreams, visions, heightened states of awareness we can tap into that vision, & see past, present & future. So, Frodo in his dream kind of 'jumps' to another part of his story & sees from the bow of the Ship, while he is still, from the point of view of his worldly consciousness, asleep in Tom's house. Again, in Lorien Tolkien says that even after he had left still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there (don't have the exact quote to hand ) but this implies that on some level the whole of Frodo's (& everyone else's) life is like an eternal 'moment', any point of which can be accessed at any time. I suppose you could think of this 'higher' observer as being like ourself, the reader of LotR. We can pick up the book & go to any point in Frodo's story. We can read it through, or jump from point to point as we wish, or read the same event over & over, because the whole story exists in a complete form. Frodo's 'higher self', the observer who can be both in bed in Tom's house & standing at the bow of the ship coming into Tol Eressea, is like the reader of his story.

Clearly, this makes prophecy possible, but it also makes mistakes possible - the equivalent of mis-readings, or attempts to read a text in a language you aren't familiar with. Galadriel's statement implies that from the point of view of the limited consciousness of an individual within the world there are different possibilities, which are affected by all the decisions made by all the individuals involved - from the perspective of the person in the boat, any number of things could be around the next bend, any action taken by that person could affect what happens to the boat, but from the perspective of the person in the plane, or of the reader of the story, the events are fixed. Frodo cannot know what will result from his decisions, but we, like the 'observer at infinity' as Dunne puts it, do.
From this perspective, Malbeth the Seer, was 'present' both at the time he was writing the prophecy, & at the time Aragorn entered the Paths, or rather he was in a 'state' where both points in time/space were accessible to his consciousness.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:35 PM January 16, 2004: Message edited by: davem ]