Themes in LotR - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elven-Maiden · 02-23-2002, 10:58 AM

It struck me the other day that I couldn't think of any "bad guys" who became good, but plenty of "good guys" who fell at one point or other.

Frodo claimed the ring for himself
Denethor went nuts
Boromir wanted the Ring

there are more, but of the antagonists, Saruman, Sauron, Wormtongue, Gollum.... all came to an unfortunate demise... The only execption I could think of as Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, but even she wasn't evil.

What are some other opinions on this?

Anarya SilverBranch · 02-23-2002, 12:24 PM

I guess that once you've fallen from glory you can't really get back. Anyway, could you see Gollum suddenly saying, "You know what forget the ring." than going to hobbiton and starting a flower shop or something? I guess its all in the character

Elven-Maiden · 02-23-2002, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anarya SilverBranch:
Anyway, could you see Gollum suddenly saying, "You know what forget the ring." than going to hobbiton and starting a flower shop or something?

True... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Too bad, though.

avarerniliel · 02-23-2002, 01:06 PM

What a true topic. I had never thought of it before. But as far as Gollum goes, in my diary, he doesn't die, and he's not evil. He lives in the bottom of Mt. Doom, and is just misunderstood, he's got asthma.

Elven-Maiden · 02-23-2002, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by avarerniliel:
But as far as Gollum goes, in my diary, he doesn't die, and he's not evil. He lives in the bottom of Mt. Doom, and is just misunderstood, he's got asthma.

Your diary??? Gollum.. alive!?!?! *starts cheering, then a though crosses her mind....* what happened to the Ring??? *runs in terror*

onewhitetree · 02-23-2002, 02:12 PM

Some of them went bad, yes, but Boromir realized the error of his ways, and if it weren't for that destiny thing, I think Gollum could have become Frodo's faithful butler.

***Sharkû*** · 02-23-2002, 02:37 PM

All of these examples are Ring examples, to judge the theme in the works on ME you will have to consider the Ring's nature (it simply is influential evil), and mainly the cases where there is no Ring; First and Second Age.

And where there is no Ring, people hardly change in Middle-Earth, they bear the nature of good or evil in them. Maeglin never was a jolly, virtuos, or especially noble Elf; and circumstances only brought out the evil in him. Same goes for Gollum.

Grace and pardon, sometimes transcendental, is, however, possible; even though it is logical in the context of the cosmology of ME that the really evil do not repent. Others do nevertheless: take Galadriel as a prime example, but also the other Noldor who rebelled.

Rosa Underhill · 02-23-2002, 02:47 PM

The evil in Middle-earth is much the evil in our own world. Those who are truely corrupted can never submit to being forgiven; they may think themselves weak for it or simply not realize that they have such an option. Look at Hitler (who reminds me a lot of Sauron).

I don't think Gollum was himself after so long with the Ring. In fact, he wasn't. Gandalf said something about Gollum's mind and will being consumed by the Ring until there was nothing left but desire for it. I wonder what would have happened if Gollum hadn't been destroyed with the Ring. I think he probably would have died anyway, but it would have been worse for him. Illuvatar was merciful in sending Gollum into the Cracks of Doom with his "precious".

Boromir, however, was not truely corrupted. He repented after he tried to take the Ring and gave his life for Merry and Pippin as an act of redemtion (in my mind, anyway).

And some evil is just evil through and through. Smaug was too greedy to ever be good; he gave his heart to his horde, as is a dragon's want. And Sauron, well, we know about Sauron. A general in Middle-earth's version of Satan's army just doesn't turn back to the light. Ever.

Saruman was corrupted by greed, the same as Smaug. In the early stages, his craving for power could have been stopped, but he held onto it for too long and it destroyed him from the inside out. The same had happened to Wormtongue, though he might have always been coniving.

And it was the Ring's fault that Frodo turned. Once it was gone, he was closer to the old Frodo again. Though not the same as before he'd possesed it, his heart was still esentially good. (If the hearts of men can be good... But that's another matter entirely.)

Birdland · 02-23-2002, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rosa Underhill:

I don't think Gollum was himself after so long with the Ring. In fact, he wasn't. Gandalf said something about Gollum's mind and will being consumed by the Ring until there was nothing left but desire for it.

I can't remember which thread it was, but I think I mentioned before, my thought that Gollum really didn't have far to fall when the ring "chose" him. He committed murder to possess it, before he even had touched it!

Whereas Bilbo carried it for years, and apparently used it quite often, and never really did worse than being rude to some Sacksville-Baggines once in awhile.

I fear that Smeagol would have been one nasty Hobbit, even if he had never seen the Ring. Kinda like Ted Sandyman.

dragongirlG · 02-23-2002, 03:19 PM

Quote:

I fear that Smeagol would have been one nasty Hobbit, even if he had never seen the Ring. Kinda like Ted Sandyman.

I agree Birdland! Smeagol was never truly good, he always was a little "off" for a hobbit. He killed Deagol before he touched the Ring, and before that, he liked to burrow into dark holes and hated the sun in the first place.

Elven-Maiden · 02-23-2002, 04:44 PM

Hmmm.... Interesting.... This is turning out to be a very complicated thread. *scurries off into a corner to mull over everything she's read* thanks! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Rosa Underhill · 02-23-2002, 07:18 PM

Quote:

I fear that Smeagol would have been one nasty Hobbit, even if he had never seen the Ring.

Quite right, Birdland! I'd forgotten about that when I posted the first time. My friend and I were talking about it later, though. (Now she's threatening to call me at late hours ans hiss "My precioussss..." into the phone! Eeek!)

But, in an odd sort of twist, it seemed that, in his emptiness and wretchedness, Gollum was starting to become a little bit better than he had been before he laid hands on the Ring. Recall how he reacted to seeing Sam and Frodo sleeping in Cirith Ungol. As if he desired something he had never had...

Ah, but therein is the essential tragedy of the corrupted Smeagol. But he never would have attained that which he sought; as he clearly proved shortly after seeing Sam and Frodo sleeping, he was too far gone to know anything more than the wretchedness that was himself. (Urk. Can't write and watch Jeopardy simultaniously!)

littlemanpoet · 02-23-2002, 09:17 PM

Other exceptions to the be-good-stay-good and be-bad-stay-bad dynamic in ME are:

- Osse, the god of the surf, who, we are told, had rebelled and followed Morgoth but repented and served Ulmo faithfully thereafter, though a little stormily now and then.

- Surpringly, Sauron, who repented at the end of the First Age but couldn't stick it out thereafter.

- Another instance is Thorin who succumbs to Dwarf-greed in the Lonely Mountain and afterward is cleansed of his greed by his approaching death.

Elven-Maiden · 02-24-2002, 10:05 AM

Thanks, Littlemanpoet, you found some exeptions to the trend! But still, they weren't totally bad to begin with, and Sauron still didn't keep his promise. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

littlemanpoet · 02-26-2002, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elven-Maiden:
they weren't totally bad to begin with, and Sauron still didn't keep his promise.

Yeah, I didn't think they were GREAT examples but they were the only ones I could think of.

[img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 02-26-2002, 04:37 PM

I can't think of any grand redemptions from evil, but Lobelia Sackville-Baggins certainly changes for the better at the end of RoTK. Wait a moment: the renunciation of the Oath of Feanor. That's a redemption of a kind.

littlemanpoet · 02-27-2002, 04:46 AM

So Galadriel was redeemed? Who paid?

02-27-2002, 05:34 AM

If you newer have been loved... you will never be able to love...

If you never hav been treated justily. You will never treat anyone justily, because you don't know how to do....

02-23-2002, 10:58 AM	#1
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Themes in LotR It struck me the other day that I couldn't think of any "bad guys" who became good, but plenty of "good guys" who fell at one point or other. Frodo claimed the ring for himself Denethor went nuts Boromir wanted the Ring there are more, but of the antagonists, Saruman, Sauron, Wormtongue, Gollum.... all came to an unfortunate demise... The only execption I could think of as Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, but even she wasn't evil. What are some other opinions on this? __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-23-2002, 12:24 PM	#2
Anarya SilverBranch Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: In maiden meditation, fancy free. Posts: 245	I guess that once you've fallen from glory you can't really get back. Anyway, could you see Gollum suddenly saying, "You know what forget the ring." than going to hobbiton and starting a flower shop or something? I guess its all in the character __________________ Snow white! Snow White! O' Lady Clear! O' Queen Beyond the Western Seas! O' light to us that wander here amid the world of woven trees!

02-23-2002, 02:12 PM	#6
onewhitetree Seeker of Syntax Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: The Scene of the Crime Posts: 264	Some of them went bad, yes, but Boromir realized the error of his ways, and if it weren't for that destiny thing, I think Gollum could have become Frodo's faithful butler. __________________ onewhitetree (also known as Kate) Well, I'M BACK.

02-23-2002, 02:47 PM	#8
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	The evil in Middle-earth is much the evil in our own world. Those who are truely corrupted can never submit to being forgiven; they may think themselves weak for it or simply not realize that they have such an option. Look at Hitler (who reminds me a lot of Sauron). I don't think Gollum was himself after so long with the Ring. In fact, he wasn't. Gandalf said something about Gollum's mind and will being consumed by the Ring until there was nothing left but desire for it. I wonder what would have happened if Gollum hadn't been destroyed with the Ring. I think he probably would have died anyway, but it would have been worse for him. Illuvatar was merciful in sending Gollum into the Cracks of Doom with his "precious". Boromir, however, was not truely corrupted. He repented after he tried to take the Ring and gave his life for Merry and Pippin as an act of redemtion (in my mind, anyway). And some evil is just evil through and through. Smaug was too greedy to ever be good; he gave his heart to his horde, as is a dragon's want. And Sauron, well, we know about Sauron. A general in Middle-earth's version of Satan's army just doesn't turn back to the light. Ever. Saruman was corrupted by greed, the same as Smaug. In the early stages, his craving for power could have been stopped, but he held onto it for too long and it destroyed him from the inside out. The same had happened to Wormtongue, though he might have always been coniving. And it was the Ring's fault that Frodo turned. Once it was gone, he was closer to the old Frodo again. Though not the same as before he'd possesed it, his heart was still esentially good. (If the hearts of men can be good... But that's another matter entirely.) __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-23-2002, 04:44 PM	#11
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Hmmm.... Interesting.... This is turning out to be a very complicated thread. scurries off into a corner to mull over everything she's read thanks! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-23-2002, 01:06 PM	#4
avarerniliel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: In front of the moniter... Posts: 58	What a true topic. I had never thought of it before. But as far as Gollum goes, in my diary, he doesn't die, and he's not evil. He lives in the bottom of Mt. Doom, and is just misunderstood, he's got asthma.

02-23-2002, 02:37 PM	#7
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	All of these examples are Ring examples, to judge the theme in the works on ME you will have to consider the Ring's nature (it simply is influential evil), and mainly the cases where there is no Ring; First and Second Age. And where there is no Ring, people hardly change in Middle-Earth, they bear the nature of good or evil in them. Maeglin never was a jolly, virtuos, or especially noble Elf; and circumstances only brought out the evil in him. Same goes for Gollum. Grace and pardon, sometimes transcendental, is, however, possible; even though it is logical in the context of the cosmology of ME that the really evil do not repent. Others do nevertheless: take Galadriel as a prime example, but also the other Noldor who rebelled.

02-23-2002, 09:17 PM	#13
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	Other exceptions to the be-good-stay-good and be-bad-stay-bad dynamic in ME are: - Osse, the god of the surf, who, we are told, had rebelled and followed Morgoth but repented and served Ulmo faithfully thereafter, though a little stormily now and then. - Surpringly, Sauron, who repented at the end of the First Age but couldn't stick it out thereafter. - Another instance is Thorin who succumbs to Dwarf-greed in the Lonely Mountain and afterward is cleansed of his greed by his approaching death.

02-24-2002, 10:05 AM	#14
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Thanks, Littlemanpoet, you found some exeptions to the trend! But still, they weren't totally bad to begin with, and Sauron still didn't keep his promise. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-26-2002, 04:37 PM	#16
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	I can't think of any grand redemptions from evil, but Lobelia Sackville-Baggins certainly changes for the better at the end of RoTK. Wait a moment: the renunciation of the Oath of Feanor. That's a redemption of a kind. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

02-27-2002, 04:46 AM	#17
littlemanpoet Itinerant Songster Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Edge of Faerie Posts: 7,066	So Galadriel was redeemed? Who paid?

02-27-2002, 05:34 AM	#18
Elenwen Guest Posts: n/a	If you newer have been loved... you will never be able to love... If you never hav been treated justily. You will never treat anyone justily, because you don't know how to do....