where is Valinor? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

01-02-2004, 06:55 PM

hi

where is Valinor? is it a spirtual place or something more phyical? I presume they sail there or is this a metaphor. If one goes to valinor why cannot people come back>

Lathriel · 01-02-2004, 07:57 PM

Valinor is a place in the Undying lands. It is beyond the mountains of the Pelori.
Now nobody can go to the Undying lands if they are not elves. The Numenoreans (humans granted with long life) were punished when they tried to get to the Undying lands.
I hope that at least answers part of your question.

Lord of Angmar · 01-02-2004, 08:39 PM

Valinor and the Grey Havens

Valinor=Heaven for Elves?

Take a look at these, or try searching on Valinor, you should find many topics. Try not to open threads like this before searching, since generic questions like this tend to be redundant. You don't want to draw the wrath of the Moderators! *shudders in terror*

01-02-2004, 10:16 PM

Thanks for the information but i am tired of being told to do a search on the forum etc. I did that before hand and one should not have to do that. It a legitmate question and if one does not want repeat them put information an faq so we can all access but this constant berateing of people is starting to irrate me.

Lord of Angmar · 01-02-2004, 10:39 PM

If you do not search on topics that have already been discussed, then the fora will devolve into a scattered mess of redundancy. Searching on things allows you to read other people's insights into the question, and you can add your two cents to the conversation without cluttering the forum.

***Sharkû*** · 01-02-2004, 10:46 PM

Searching a forum certainly isn't too much to ask. What's more, Lord of Angmar already pointed to some topics.
One might even point to the Encyclopedia of Arda ( http://www.glyphweb.com/arda or sth like that).
And, guess what, we DO have a FAQ article on this question: http://www.barrowdowns.com/faq_mortalsinv.asp

Legolas · 01-03-2004, 12:59 AM

A better suggestion is reading The Silmarillion. Within one chapter you'd know exactly what and where Valinor is. It wouldn't be someone saying your lazy - it would be fellow Tolkien fans encouraging you to read it for yourself, discover it for yourself. It's so much better that way.

Lord of Angmar · 01-03-2004, 01:02 AM

Very good point, Legolas! We have access to so much information about Tolkien's works at our fingertips with this fine website, sometimes I forget in my prescription for curing redundant inquisitiveness that maybe I should suggest the actual source material, since that is what we are here to discuss.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Olorin_TLA · 01-03-2004, 09:09 AM

Valinor is where the Valar (the Guardians of the Earth; you could call them Gods, but they're not all-powerful, or creators of intelligent and sentient creatures - that would be Eru, who created the Valar) live, and with them many Elves. Some rebelled and left for Middle-earth to get revenge on Morgoth, the first Dark Lord, before the First Age, and as is seen in LotR many returned after the defeat of Morgoth in the First Age.

Technically nobody but Elves are allowed there...this isn't to exclude Men, but because Elves (and obviously the Valar) are immortal, they "age" much, much, slower than Men, and so in mortal Middle-earth all the things like trees, animals, etc, seem to Evles to die very soon after being born. In the Undying Lands (Valinor) everything ages more slowly, so it's basically running on the right "timescale" for Elves to feel at peace.
But if a mortal were to stay there, they would see themselves age and grow old whilst everything around them stayed young and hardly aged at all, even the animals; it would basically be very unfair, especailly from a psychological point of view, on the poor mortal, which is why they aren't allowed there.

Frodo etc however are allowed there as a special reward for all they did, and so all they have suffered may be healed in the land of the Valar. However, they would eventually die mortal deaths, but to avoid the aforementioned situtation, they would be able to choose when they died (like Aragorn was allowed), and so pass into the next life beyond the Circles of the World.

No mortal may retun from Valinor, bascially because they weren't meant to be there, and to the Elves, for the most part, it's like home, even if (in Legolas') case they've never seen it before...it just calls to them, in a manner of speaking. And so they don't want to leave - it's paradise, for Elves. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 01-03-2004, 09:54 AM

After the third age, when all of the elves had left ME, then valinor was lifted out of the earth, and the earth was made round, and so when the men tried to reach it they just came back to ME. This was sowhere in the Sil i think.

Olorin_TLA · 01-03-2004, 03:11 PM

Valinor was actually seperated from the rest of the world in the 2nd Age.

What happneed is that the Numenoreans, with Sauron's encouragement, tried to invade and conquer Valinor. The minute they set foot on it, Manwe, the head of the Valar, prayed to Eru for aid. Eru destoryed the invasion force, destoryed the enitre island of Numenor as well, and then to settle matters (apparently making up for eons of inactivity with a bit too much zeal!!!) he separated Valinor from the world.
Meaning that only Elves, and the occasional blessed individula, could sial West and reach Valinor, seeing the rest of the round world fall beneath them. EVeryone else would just reach new lands that were created where Valinor had been, and then eventually reach where they'd started again.

Silmiel of Imladris · 01-03-2004, 04:51 PM

Oh cool! Valinor is kind of like "an Island that can only be found by those who already know where it is." to quote POTC.

Quote:

they would be able to choose when they died (like Aragorn was allowed), and so pass into the next life beyond the Circles of the World.

How does that work? I never knew Aragorn could choose when he died. Was this in the LOTR or the Sil?

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 5:52 PM January 03, 2004: Message edited by: Silmiel of Imladris ]

Lord of Angmar · 01-04-2004, 10:32 AM

"Nay, lady, I am the last of the Numenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my will, and give back the gift. Now, therefore, I will sleep." --Aragorn to Arwen in "Appendix A, Section (V): Here Follows a Part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen"

The Dark Elf · 01-04-2004, 01:58 PM

Valinor's an island where not many enimies no about. its some whrer west of middle earth

01-02-2004, 06:55 PM	#1
Darren Sharrocks Guest Posts: n/a	where is Valinor? hi where is Valinor? is it a spirtual place or something more phyical? I presume they sail there or is this a metaphor. If one goes to valinor why cannot people come back>

01-02-2004, 07:57 PM	#2
Lathriel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Wandering through Middle-Earth (Sadly in Alberta and not ME) Posts: 612	Valinor is a place in the Undying lands. It is beyond the mountains of the Pelori. Now nobody can go to the Undying lands if they are not elves. The Numenoreans (humans granted with long life) were punished when they tried to get to the Undying lands. I hope that at least answers part of your question. __________________ Back again

01-02-2004, 08:39 PM	#3
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Valinor and the Grey Havens Valinor=Heaven for Elves? Take a look at these, or try searching on Valinor, you should find many topics. Try not to open threads like this before searching, since generic questions like this tend to be redundant. You don't want to draw the wrath of the Moderators! shudders in terror __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

01-02-2004, 10:39 PM	#5
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	If you do not search on topics that have already been discussed, then the fora will devolve into a scattered mess of redundancy. Searching on things allows you to read other people's insights into the question, and you can add your two cents to the conversation without cluttering the forum. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

01-03-2004, 12:59 AM	#7
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	A better suggestion is reading The Silmarillion. Within one chapter you'd know exactly what and where Valinor is. It wouldn't be someone saying your lazy - it would be fellow Tolkien fans encouraging you to read it for yourself, discover it for yourself. It's so much better that way. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

01-02-2004, 10:16 PM	#4
Darren Sharrocks Guest Posts: n/a	Thanks for the information but i am tired of being told to do a search on the forum etc. I did that before hand and one should not have to do that. It a legitmate question and if one does not want repeat them put information an faq so we can all access but this constant berateing of people is starting to irrate me.

01-02-2004, 10:46 PM	#6
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Searching a forum certainly isn't too much to ask. What's more, Lord of Angmar already pointed to some topics. One might even point to the Encyclopedia of Arda ( http://www.glyphweb.com/arda or sth like that). And, guess what, we DO have a FAQ article on this question: http://www.barrowdowns.com/faq_mortalsinv.asp

01-03-2004, 01:02 AM	#8
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Very good point, Legolas! We have access to so much information about Tolkien's works at our fingertips with this fine website, sometimes I forget in my prescription for curing redundant inquisitiveness that maybe I should suggest the actual source material, since that is what we are here to discuss. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

01-03-2004, 09:09 AM	#9
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Valinor is where the Valar (the Guardians of the Earth; you could call them Gods, but they're not all-powerful, or creators of intelligent and sentient creatures - that would be Eru, who created the Valar) live, and with them many Elves. Some rebelled and left for Middle-earth to get revenge on Morgoth, the first Dark Lord, before the First Age, and as is seen in LotR many returned after the defeat of Morgoth in the First Age. Technically nobody but Elves are allowed there...this isn't to exclude Men, but because Elves (and obviously the Valar) are immortal, they "age" much, much, slower than Men, and so in mortal Middle-earth all the things like trees, animals, etc, seem to Evles to die very soon after being born. In the Undying Lands (Valinor) everything ages more slowly, so it's basically running on the right "timescale" for Elves to feel at peace. But if a mortal were to stay there, they would see themselves age and grow old whilst everything around them stayed young and hardly aged at all, even the animals; it would basically be very unfair, especailly from a psychological point of view, on the poor mortal, which is why they aren't allowed there. Frodo etc however are allowed there as a special reward for all they did, and so all they have suffered may be healed in the land of the Valar. However, they would eventually die mortal deaths, but to avoid the aforementioned situtation, they would be able to choose when they died (like Aragorn was allowed), and so pass into the next life beyond the Circles of the World. No mortal may retun from Valinor, bascially because they weren't meant to be there, and to the Elves, for the most part, it's like home, even if (in Legolas') case they've never seen it before...it just calls to them, in a manner of speaking. And so they don't want to leave - it's paradise, for Elves. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

01-03-2004, 09:54 AM	#10
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	After the third age, when all of the elves had left ME, then valinor was lifted out of the earth, and the earth was made round, and so when the men tried to reach it they just came back to ME. This was sowhere in the Sil i think. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

01-03-2004, 03:11 PM	#11
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Valinor was actually seperated from the rest of the world in the 2nd Age. What happneed is that the Numenoreans, with Sauron's encouragement, tried to invade and conquer Valinor. The minute they set foot on it, Manwe, the head of the Valar, prayed to Eru for aid. Eru destoryed the invasion force, destoryed the enitre island of Numenor as well, and then to settle matters (apparently making up for eons of inactivity with a bit too much zeal!!!) he separated Valinor from the world. Meaning that only Elves, and the occasional blessed individula, could sial West and reach Valinor, seeing the rest of the round world fall beneath them. EVeryone else would just reach new lands that were created where Valinor had been, and then eventually reach where they'd started again. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

01-04-2004, 10:32 AM	#13
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	"Nay, lady, I am the last of the Numenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace to go at my will, and give back the gift. Now, therefore, I will sleep." --Aragorn to Arwen in "Appendix A, Section (V): Here Follows a Part of the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen" __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

01-04-2004, 01:58 PM	#14
The Dark Elf Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Angmar Posts: 74	Valinor's an island where not many enimies no about. its some whrer west of middle earth __________________ "Fool of a Took!"