The Purpose of Man

[Ibun_Clawarrow]

Hey, everyone. I'm a first time poster and I've got a lot of question and comments to give and I'm glad I finally have a place to discuss them. My first question is, what was the purpose of Men in Middle Earth? I mean, when you think about it, Men seem to come off like crummy versions of Elves. This seems to be even more the case when the noblest Men were heavily allied with Elves and/or had some Elf blood in them. What do you all think about the purpose of Men?

[Lomelinde]

The purpose of the elves was to nurture the earth and foster it's beauty.This was the good purpose.The other purpose, the one they chose to forget,was to gradually fade and make way for the "Followers", or the race of Men. The purpose of Men was to "follow" the Firstborn, and to eventually take over and grow. Although the race of Man appears at first to be a weak and pathetic imitation of the Eldar, Iluvatar had a special plan in mind when he designed it and held a place in his heart for it. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Thalionyulma]

Good question!
Even in the books (particularly The Sil) it says something like only Iluvatar knew. He had given them strange gifts - perhaps its similar to the real world (maybe it was a subject pondered by JRRT). Men shape their own destiny, even if there was a path that they should walk upon.
Who really knows?
sorry, i can't really give you a straight answer on that [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Oh, welcome to the Barrow, Ibun ... keep posting and don't hesitate to ask anything about JRRT's works! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ April 07, 2002: Message edited by: Thalionyulma ]

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Ibun_Clawarrow

My first question is, what was the purpose of Men in Middle Earth?

Besides taking out the garbage?

I think that, besides the necessity of populating the world with men, tying this mythological past to today, Tolkien's purpose for men was to mix things up a bit. Humans add chaos to the world. Whereas elves might be a clear mountain pool reflecting the stars and moon at night, humans are more like the sea during the day.

The spice that we add is our restlessness with this world.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think it's pretty clear. Two things which I agree with have been already mentioned - first, that only Ilúvatar really knew completely, and then secondly, that Men were supposed to take the role of Eldar after the Eldar faded. Obviously Men had many strange gifts, even the Eldar were amazed how much were they able to do, despite their pitifully short life, and how much effort were they able to put into things despite (or, of course: because of) their pitifully short life. That's obvious and it gives a lot of potential - of course potential to make good things as well to make a mess, but that's the fundamental choice that underlies the lives of Men.

And then, of course, and very importantly, there is the Second Music, in which the Men are going to participate alongside the Elves. And this, I think, goes once again back to one recurring theme in Tolkien's works in general, the powers of Man as a "subcreator" - and I am pretty sure this was in the background also here and also under the imagination of the "Dominion of Men" (so it's not only a matter of something beyond the world, but also within Arda, of course). Never in Tolkien's works was ruling something (when used in the positive way*) meant as controlling something, and he'd probably be in tune with the fundamentally Biblical purpose of Man whom God had set in the garden of Eden "to work on (could be even understood as "serve") it and guard it" (I think the King James Version has very nicely "to dress it and to keep it") - i.e. as a ruler, he is not to control things and use them according to his own whims, but to take them as a matter of caretaking (stewardship...). However the aspect of "enrichening" in Tolkien is even stronger in relation to Men (the role of caretakers is often given to other beings, like Ents, but after they diminish too, the Dominion of Men obviously comes and then all the responsibility probably passes to Men as well as everything else).

*Note: It was Saruman who boasted about "Knowledge, Rule, Order" obviously in totally twisted sense, but I can well imagine that all these terms were originally part of his "mission briefing" in their positive sense: Knowledge as understanding, Rule as caretaking, Order as preservation against totally unchecked - and therefore dangerous - chaos.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think it's pretty clear. Two things which I agree with have been already mentioned - first, that only Ilúvatar really knew completely, and then secondly, that Men were supposed to take the role of Eldar after the Eldar faded.

Were the Eldar always meant to fade away - those that didn't burn out?

Obviously Men had many strange gifts, even the Eldar were amazed how much were they able to do, despite their pitifully short life, and how much effort were they able to put into things despite (or, of course: because of) their pitifully short life. That's obvious and it gives a lot of potential - of course potential to make good things as well to make a mess, but that's the fundamental choice that underlies the lives of Men.

Aren't they Eru's 'insurance policy' against the guttering of the light? When Melkor rose up again with another theme, Eru counters with Man, and only then are we assured that the Music will never stop completely.

*Note: It was Saruman who boasted about "Knowledge, Rule, Order" obviously in totally twisted sense, but I can well imagine that all these terms were originally part of his "mission briefing" in their positive sense: Knowledge as understanding, Rule as caretaking, Order as preservation against totally unchecked - and therefore dangerous - chaos.

But I think that chaos was part of the plan...just not too much chaos.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by alatar

Were the Eldar always meant to fade away - those that didn't burn out?

That might seem to have conflicting indications. In the Prophecy of the North, the fading is made to seem a consequence of the deeds of Fëanor and his followers.

'And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the Younger Race that cometh after.'

Silmarillion Of the Flight of the Noldor

However, Gandalf tells Aragorn his kingdom will encompass all he can see from high up Mt. Mindolluin, and

'...the time comes for the Dominion of Men, and the Elder Kindred shall fade or depart.

Return of the King The Steward and the King

He doesn't single out the Noldor for that fate. And earlier in the same book, while Legolas and Gimli talk in Minas Tirith, they discuss Men:

'It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise.'
'Yet seldom do they fail of their seed,' said Legolas. ' And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for. The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli.'

ROTK The Last Debate

Legolas, at least, appears to have the belief that not only Elves, but Dwarves as well, would 'fade'.

I would guess that the voluntary departure or inevitable fading of the Elves was indeed part of the plan from the start, or at least from the time when Men entered the Music. It seems to me that is bound up with the fundamental thing about the Elves that differs from other races: immortality. Why would their 'right' home be in Middle-earth, a quickly changing environment with constant death and rebirth? That just seems to be incompatible with their nature. In the Blessed Realm, without Morgoth to stir hatred and lies in them, the Elves are at peace.
As for the threats made to the Noldor in the Prophecy, maybe that can be reconciled as a promise that the Noldor would simply fade sooner because of their deeds, and the effects of Middle-earth would be swifter in bringing about the 'weariness' in them, as opposed to the Dark Elves and the Sindar.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I agree with Inziladun, and I have always seen it that way, especially LotR is very strong in that. Likewise the very end sentence of the Silmarillion underlines it. Of course I have never been thinking about where it "started", but for some reason, I have been always looking at it from the complex point of view, and that this was just thing that has been sort of present there from the beginning. Arda Marred, everything fades. Elves cannot just bear it forever either. And not just Elves, I always think also of the last debate with Treebeard (in reply to his famous line about "never" being too long word even for him, Gandalf's rather shocking - in that context - remark that maybe kingdoms of Men will outlast him in this Age). It's a sort of thing soaking through and through everything (at least everything ancient and "magical"), I don't see why the Elves would be an exception.

Originally Posted by alatar

Aren't they Eru's 'insurance policy' against the guttering of the light? When Melkor rose up again with another theme, Eru counters with Man, and only then are we assured that the Music will never stop completely.

That's one good point too, however I would not call them "insurance policy" just like that. They, as a theme, are a response to Melkor: they mean life and new creation instead of death and destruction presented by Melkor. In that sense, they are "insurance policy", but partially sort of unknowingly. Just because they are, if we wanted to use some philosophical language, we could say that "life and continuation of creation is Men's essence". However, there is also of course the chance of Men grasping sort of consciously the role of the "insurance policy", meaning that they would really materially oppose Sauron or Morgoth (as it happened). But I think the fundamental truth of what you said lies in the former thing I mentioned.

Originally Posted by alatar

But I think that chaos was part of the plan...just not too much chaos.

Sure, that's what I meant. I see despite my effort it did not sound clear enough: I said "against totally unchecked chaos", meaning "against that kind of chaos, which is totally unchecked". That was the whole point of it.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That's one good point too, however I would not call them "insurance policy" just like that. They, as a theme, are a response to Melkor: they mean life and new creation instead of death and destruction presented by Melkor. In that sense, they are "insurance policy", but partially sort of unknowingly. Just because they are, if we wanted to use some philosophical language, we could say that "life and continuation of creation is Men's essence". However, there is also of course the chance of Men grasping sort of consciously the role of the "insurance policy", meaning that they would really materially oppose Sauron or Morgoth (as it happened). But I think the fundamental truth of what you said lies in the former thing I mentioned.

Just to chime in here, I agree with Legate that "insurance policy" gives the wrong connotation, insofar as it suggests a sort of "just in case" response on Eru's part, otherwise undesirable, and a second-best option (the best of course being not to have the incident in the first place). Men are the second race of Children, but they are not "second-best." It's probably better to think of the as the second stage of a rocket, intended to be boosted to a certain height by the Eldar before thrusting forward with our "purpose" as the Elves fade from sight.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Just to chime in here, I agree with Legate that "insurance policy" gives the wrong connotation, insofar as it suggests a sort of "just in case" response on Eru's part, otherwise undesirable, and a second-best option (the best of course being not to have the incident in the first place). Men are the second race of Children, but they are not "second-best." It's probably better to think of the as the second stage of a rocket, intended to be boosted to a certain height by the Eldar before thrusting forward with our "purpose" as the Elves fade from sight.

Admittedly, and now obviously, it was not the best way to describe the creation of Mankind.

Think that, however, you *do* understand my intent, which was that humans are a counter to Melkor. The elves could only do so much, even with their superhuman 'powers.' The failing, to call it that, of the elves, is that they could become contented. Humans were given the gift of discontent, with Arda, with everything. This creative force might make ugly things, but it would also produce survivors, insuring that some would remain to fight the darkness.

[skip spence]

The feeling I get is that Men are the main characters in the whole Arda saga. Elves are just supplementary, they are there to get Men a good start, to set an example. It is Men that will complete the story, bring it to a climax; they are the prime movers at the centre of Eru's plan. And Dwarves, they're just Eru doing a buddy a favour, aren't they?

[mikelangelo11]

Men were the youngest race in Middle-earth , they awoke when the sun first rose. They have the Gift of Death, given to them by Iluvatar and allows them to go beyond the confines of the world.