other continents on Arda.

[Hans Markus Rod]

Were there other continents on Arda in the third age, apart from Middle-Earth. In Unfinished tales it is said that Numenor sank down into the sea, an Aman dissapeared from the circles of the world.
I have also seen maps, not made by Tolkien himself though, where continents south-east of Middle-Earth lies. These are named The Dark Lands, and The Sun Lands. Is these lands mentioned in any of Tolkiens writings?

[lathspell]

Well, I always thought that the Lonely Isle (Tol Eressea) would still be there, since Bilbo and company sailed there, but maybe it had vanished from Arda as well. I don't rightly know.

greetings,
lathspell

[Noxomanus]

I think there was Kalorme representing the Americas.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Well since 'Middle Earth' is Europe/Asia/Africa I would gues the Dark Lands and the Sun Lands eventually became the Americas.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I think there was Kalorme representing the Americas.

Well since 'Middle Earth' is Europe/Asia/Africa I would gues the Dark Lands and the Sun Lands eventually became the Americas.

What are you talking about? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[Meoshi]

There's nothing to support the "dark lands", but the "sunlands" are a continent defined in Shaping of Middle Earth.

[Elora]

Karen Wynn Fonstad compiled an Atlas of Middle-Earth.

She studied the lands and geography of Arda across the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Ages. I have found it to be an excellent guide for role-playing, as it includes maps of lands, journies of key characters in each age, diagrams of wars and war fronts, military lines and strategems, guides on topography, inhabitants, plants and animals lives, climates, weather patterns and even how far Tolkien had people travelling by horse on on foot by Race of character (Elf, Dwarf, Man).

I would have to say I have no quibble with it's accuracy from what I have observed, but like all guides it is not direct source material and so possibly open to some dispute over it's veracity.

Hopefully I've got a hold of the right end of the stick in looking at what she listed for the 3rd Age. Reviewing that section, here are what the Atlas has by way of maps:

• Middle-Earth: including the realms of Forodwaith, Eriador, Arnor, Rhovanion, Rhun, Gondor, Mordor, Khand, Haradwaith
• The sunken peak of Memeltarma, the very tip of which seems to appear as a small land mass in "The Sea"
• The outline of the sunken Numenor, now re-named as Atalante ("The Downfallen")
• The New Lands, which I group as "The West" and would inculde Tol Eressea and Aman

Interestingly though, and hopefully not to only me [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img], there is a large map of Arda as at the 1st Age. In addition to the lands of Middle-earth and Aman (including Tol Eressea) there are other lands named:

• Hither Lands
• Dark Lands (South Land)
• Walls of the Sun (Kalorme)

Looking at the map, it is conceivable that perhaps all these lands were seen as approximations of actual continents. Tolkien was creating am ancient mythology for his Britian in his writing and it has been suggested that his lands are loosely based on ancient earth lands, similar but different on account of things like continental drift and the fact that his "mythology" does not need to be based on actual continents. It is not factual.

So he started out Arda's history with more lands. Yet, they are not mentioned in the Third Age. Whether they fell in the consequence of the terrible Wars of Power and Wrath in the First Age where the Valar widely exercised their astonishing and vast powers against Melkor, or whether they simply weren't relevant to the stories unfolding in The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings is a whole other question.

I'm inclined to rest my answers not on what is in the History of Middle-earth series, but what JRR Tolkien directly related in The Silmarillion, Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. It is from this that the Atlas I have referred to draws.

Hope that helps.

[Voronwe]

I'd beware of using secondary sources (Atlases, Encylopedias, etc.) to draw conclusions about the geography of Arda. The ones by David Day, especially, are quite inaccurate.

There is only once set of maps of Arda as a whole that might possibly be considered authorative, and those are to be found in The Ambarkanta, The Shaping of Middle Earth (HoME IV). The most important and probably the most accurate of these is map V. It shows the whole of Arda in the as it was in the First Age. For those who don't have access to the HoME books, The Enclyclopedia of Arda have a (mostly) faithful reproduction of map V, under Arda.

Tolkien envisaged his mythology to take place in our world, and this is clearly evident from even a cursory glance at the map. Middle Earth itself is Europe, and possibly some of Asia; Africa is also clearly visable, along with a rather odd continent called the 'Dark Lands' which might, in position if not in shape, resemble Australia.

It is difficult to know what level of accuracy to ascribe to this map, but it is really all we have to go on. It belongs to an early phase of Tolkien's mythology and so taking it along with the later Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings is questionable. It's a shame that the Professor didn't provide anything more detailed later in his life.

The original question concerned continents in the Third age. For this all we have to go on is map V and information about how the world changed with the drowning of Numenor. The world was made round, and Valinor and Tol Eressea removed. The creation of 'new lands' at this time is refered to in the Alkalabeth, which might possibly explain the abscence of the Americans from map V. However, this is speculation at best.

...similar but different on account of things like continental drift...

I hardly think so: continental drift didn't become an accepted scentific theory until the 1960s. The map I refered to above was drawn in the late 1930s.

[Elora]

Each of us are in essence entitled to our opinions on why the definitive maps resemble loosely continental forms present on earth.

I respect that you think allowances the professor made in his shaping of the mythological lands is not due to his consideration of how the actual lands varied from ancient times to those we presently inhabit. Personally, I think it is a possibility.

I would add that I doubt there is an Australia loosely represented on the maps you discuss. Having studied the location of my island home at length, I can't say I recognise it in Tolkien's works. That's a shame, as I would think it nice if it was there in some form.

Lastly, the only maps referenced in the atlas I discussed were maps sourced directly from J R R Tolkien, and not his son whom compiled HoME from his father's notes and records. This atlas is not written by David Day, and I am aware of how wide the variances between published anaylses of Tolkien's work can be between various scholars and students.

For your reference, the author of the Atlas I based my contributions upon (Karen Wynn Fonstad) acknowledges the following for her review of Middle-earth geoography and cartography

The staff at Marquette University's Department of Special Collections and University Archives, who cheerfully gave me access to the Tolkien Manuscript Collection, notably Chuck Easton and Taum Santoski. Without the drawings made available at Marquette, this Atlas would have require much more work in the beginning, and would have required far more extensive revision.

The author goes on to include Christopher Tolkien's Histories as further impetus to embark upon her project. She is a noted cartographer herself, and so I am inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt when it comes to her accuracy and selection of reputable and appropriate source material from which to build her atlas. Her list of references make no mention, for example, of David Day's publications where a great deal of conjecture over his conclusions and theories can be found.

I think it's a hazard that goes with the territory this question falls in, to rely on notes, maps and sketches that are not as prescriptive and authortative as to make all clear to us. But then, had the good Professor explained all fully, we would not have the joy of discussing such matters as we presently are.