Sauron and Morgoth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

JenFramp · 09-12-2002, 09:34 PM

I'm aware of what Sauron and Morgoth are..but what exactly relationship did they share? Did they share one?

the phantom · 09-12-2002, 10:16 PM

It's rather difficult for me to think about evil beings having relationships with other evil beings. Did Morgoth and Sauron ever kick back with a few beers and talk about what fun they'd had torturing their latest victim? It's hard to imagine.
Since Tolkien was a religious man, I suppose we could look to Satan and his minions as examples of what their relationhsip might have been like. I think the most important thing is that a house divided against itself cannot stand. The kingdom of Hell understands this and therefore has complete unity in its destructive mission. There's not any demon revolts against their master or anything. Likewise, when Morgoth returns from Valinor and gets into a sticky situation with Ungoliant, his balrog buddies come to his rescue. You'd think that if Gothmog or Sauron wanted to take over the throne, he could've left Morgoth to die, or ganged up on him with all his cronies, but he didn't. They were completely subjected to their master, Morgoth.
I imagine Sauron was completely under old Morgoth's finger. Just because he begged mercy from the Valar didn't mean he had turned against Morgoth, it just meant he was a coward. He stayed dedicated to Morgoth's evil cause as history went on.
Notice especially in Numenor, when Sauron was corrupting the king, he spoke of Melkor, and told the king that Melkor was the creator, and got him to worship Melkor. Obviously, he was still bound to his master. Sauron didn't have much of a relationship with Morgoth, he basically became a slave to his master's will.
Morgoth's attitude towards Sauron seemed to be one of trust. He knew Sauron wouldn't turn on him, and he entrusted him with important fortresses and missions. Sauron was his most talented pupil, and Morgoth used Sauron's talents to further his evil purpose.
I doubt that the relationship goes much beyond a typical master and his faithful servant (except that this master and servant hate everything and want to destroy the world). That's what I think anyway, but I would love for someone to come up with some great references and show me something different, cause there might be something else that I'm forgeting.
Sorry, that was too long! I don't even know if I answered the question you were asking. Whatever, I'm sleepy.

lathspell · 09-13-2002, 07:13 AM

I recently posted an answer about Sauron and Morgoth that may answer yours as well. It's in the Novices and Newcomers section, titled Sauron 'the Dark Lord'?

greetings,
lathspell

JenFramp · 09-13-2002, 09:11 AM

Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] That helped alot

09-12-2002, 09:34 PM	#1
JenFramp Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Zionsville Posts: 90	Sauron and Morgoth I'm aware of what Sauron and Morgoth are..but what exactly relationship did they share? Did they share one? __________________ And seeing a picture of Jesus he cried out,"Momma, he's got some scars just like me." And he knew it was love, It was one he could understand He was showing his love, And that's how he hurt his hands.

09-12-2002, 10:16 PM	#2
the phantom Beloved Shadow Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Stadium Posts: 5,971	It's rather difficult for me to think about evil beings having relationships with other evil beings. Did Morgoth and Sauron ever kick back with a few beers and talk about what fun they'd had torturing their latest victim? It's hard to imagine. Since Tolkien was a religious man, I suppose we could look to Satan and his minions as examples of what their relationhsip might have been like. I think the most important thing is that a house divided against itself cannot stand. The kingdom of Hell understands this and therefore has complete unity in its destructive mission. There's not any demon revolts against their master or anything. Likewise, when Morgoth returns from Valinor and gets into a sticky situation with Ungoliant, his balrog buddies come to his rescue. You'd think that if Gothmog or Sauron wanted to take over the throne, he could've left Morgoth to die, or ganged up on him with all his cronies, but he didn't. They were completely subjected to their master, Morgoth. I imagine Sauron was completely under old Morgoth's finger. Just because he begged mercy from the Valar didn't mean he had turned against Morgoth, it just meant he was a coward. He stayed dedicated to Morgoth's evil cause as history went on. Notice especially in Numenor, when Sauron was corrupting the king, he spoke of Melkor, and told the king that Melkor was the creator, and got him to worship Melkor. Obviously, he was still bound to his master. Sauron didn't have much of a relationship with Morgoth, he basically became a slave to his master's will. Morgoth's attitude towards Sauron seemed to be one of trust. He knew Sauron wouldn't turn on him, and he entrusted him with important fortresses and missions. Sauron was his most talented pupil, and Morgoth used Sauron's talents to further his evil purpose. I doubt that the relationship goes much beyond a typical master and his faithful servant (except that this master and servant hate everything and want to destroy the world). That's what I think anyway, but I would love for someone to come up with some great references and show me something different, cause there might be something else that I'm forgeting. Sorry, that was too long! I don't even know if I answered the question you were asking. Whatever, I'm sleepy. __________________ the phantom has posted. This thread is now important.

09-13-2002, 07:13 AM	#3
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	I recently posted an answer about Sauron and Morgoth that may answer yours as well. It's in the Novices and Newcomers section, titled Sauron 'the Dark Lord'? greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

09-13-2002, 09:11 AM	#4
JenFramp Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Zionsville Posts: 90	Thanks [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] That helped alot __________________ And seeing a picture of Jesus he cried out,"Momma, he's got some scars just like me." And he knew it was love, It was one he could understand He was showing his love, And that's how he hurt his hands.