The use and loss of personal power.

[Mhoram]

Some examples:

Ex.1 The well known story of how Sauron poured much of his own power into his ring.

Ex.2 "It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their like..." -Feanor

Ex.3 "Even for who are mightest under Iluvatar there is some work that they may accomplish once, and once only. The Light of the Trees I brought into being, and within Ea I can do so never again." -Yavanna

Ex.4 "For I say to you, Feanor son of Finwe, these[the Teleri's white ships] are to us as are the gems of the Noldor; the work of our hearts, whose like we shall not make again." -Olwe

With the Ainur it seems clear, they have a certain amount of personal power and through this they weave their creations and power passes into these creations. It would seem to be the same with the Elves, but as the Elves wan completely in the 4th age, it is a mostly moot point. Let me focus on the Ainur.

So, as the Ainur, both good and bad do their deeds and make their creations they slowly disperse their personal power throughout all their works. So would it be accurate to say that eventually, all the Ainur would be depleted of their personal power? Their power dispersed among the world and left in the keeping of men?

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Mhoram ]

[Sharkû]

By far the best example for that is the story of The Faithful Stone found in UT, The Drúedain, which I will for now only mention as a reference.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

That's a good story.

The dispersal of power is an interesting and probable side-effect, but I think that the intention in making Two Trees, the One Ring, the Silmarils and the ships of Alqualonde into once-only creations was to emphasise their value and to make certain narrative situations work properly: the destruction of the Two Trees is a lesser tragedy if two more can be grown in their place; if the ships of Alqualonde could be replaced there might have been no kinslaying and so on.
I think (wholly without factual evidence) that the idea that some things are irreplacable, but that we should never let that lead to rash actions, was an important one to Tolkien.

[HerenIstarion]

, both good and bad

well, not both. Here Tolkien (being devout christian) involves religious princeple - to keep something, one has to give it away with free will. So, good maiar, giving away their power, keep and even increase it, and corrupted ones lose it, for their main reason of giving it away in the first place is gaining more power. the motive of Sauron's in creating the ring was to become the Lord of all the created world, and so Melkor's, they put in to gain, while Yavanna, or Aule, or Manwe create out of love and as an imitation of they Creator, Eru, to whom (i e Aule) they offer their creation as a gift (though the ability to make is His gift to them in the first place, so it would be more correct to say, they return their gift), and therefore preserve the ability to make. Corrupted maiar are inward, their main attention is to themselves, and good, or normal ones outward, to the rest of the Ea and, chiefly, to Eru.

[Mithadan]

Mae govannen H-I! Long time since I've seen you posting in this part of the boards.

Your post dovetails nicely with a theory I raised in the "Inherent Evil" thread. However, I'm not sure I necessarily agree that the amount of personal power lost to the Valar depends on the nature of the use of the power. I'm thinking of JRRT's Second Prophecy of Mandos dealing with the Final Battle with Morgoth. Now I'm open to opinions that Tolkien rejected this conception in favor of Morgoth being executed after the fall of Angband (Saulotus would love to hear me say that, however I don't necessarily agree JRRT adopted this idea of Morgoth being slain). However the Second Prophecy suggests that the Valar will become weary and Morgoth will take that opportunity to re-enter Arda. I take this to mean that after long labor, the strength of the Valar will at last be expended, notwithstanding that their powers were used for good acts.

[Gorin Icearms]

It says in the Bible that God rested on the seventh day. Perhaps JRRT is trying to emphasize that there are some things you can do only once. (I'm really tired right now, so this may not make sense. lol)

[Aralaithiel]

Well said, Mithadan and H-I!!! My thoughts almost exactly (not in the same words, but the same theories)!
Gorin...go to bed! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Mhoram]

H-I, you've got to back that up with quotes from somewhere.

[obloquy]

The Valar 'fade' and become more impotent, precisely in proportion as the shape and constitution of things becomes more defined and settled. The longer the Past, the more nearly defined the Future, and the less room for important change (untrammelled action, on a physical plane, that is not destructive in purpose). The Past, once 'achieved', has become part of the 'Music in being'. Only Eru may or can alter the 'Music'.

There's a bit for discussion from Myths Transformed.

[Mhoram]

As I theorized, oblo. I wait for some evidence of H-I's claims before even considering it.

In regards to something Mith said, if he is in the Void not using his power, while the Valar use up theirs, he would surely, it seems, be far more powerful when he returns.

[Eowyn of Ithilien]

*agrees with the Squatter yet again*
I don't know that Melkor would have been "storing up power"-perhaps it was becoming somewhat stale from lack of use, or tainted by dwelling on revenge
just a thought-are the springs of love or hate deeper??? for Sauron had only so much power to draw on, while Varda filled the sky with stars and was still one of the Mighty

[Turgon_of_Gondolin]

It says in the Bible that God rested on the seventh day

When it says he rested it means he didn't do any work fools!

[zifnab]

So would it be accurate to say that eventually, all the Ainur would be depleted of their personal power? Their power dispersed among the world and left in the keeping of men?

It does seem accurate to me, unless they is a way for them to replenish their power, which doesn't seem correct. I assume Eru would have to do that?

It also seems that the examples of the Ainur using their power were early on. The first two ages, it seems is when they proformed the more powerful acts. From the Ainulindale to the Downfall of Numenor(and the "rounding" of Arda, and creation and destruction of other lands). And since their biggest tasks,threats and/or enemies is now taken care of (Forming/Shaping of Arda, Melkor/Sauron), their use of power probably won't be used as often or as powerful.

What have they done since to reval the above uses of power? Probably smaller and simply tasks. It seems that their biggest purpose now is in their abeting the other races.

Granted it does seem likely that when their power is "used-up"(if that is the case), then it might be in the keeping of Man. But I think they will maintain they power till the end of the world.

[HerenIstarion]

thanks for your salute, Mith [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Mhoram, here I'll give the whole passage from HoME X, Myths Transformed

The war against Utumno was only undertaken by the Valar with reluctance, and without hope of real victory, but rather as a covering action or diversion, to enable them to get the Quendi out of his sphere of influence. But Melkor had already pro-gressed some way towards becoming 'the Morgoth, a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), + his agents'. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if 'the Morgoth' could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and on a power-level with the Valar. The Valar find that they can deal with his agents (sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.) piecemeal. So that they come at last to Utumno itself and find that 'the Morgoth' has no longer for the moment sufficient 'force' (in any sense) to shield himself from direct personal contact. Manwë at last faces Melkor again, as he has not done since he entered Arda. Both are amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person, Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view: he has now less personal force than Manwë, and can no longer daunt him with his gaze.
Either Manwë must tell him so or he must himself suddenly realize (or both) that this has happened: he is 'dispersed'. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, has become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (possibly was by absolute and unfeigned self-abasement and repentance only) he cannot bring himself to do it.As with all other characters there must be a trembling moment when it is in the balance: he nearly repents - and does not, and becomes much wickeder, and more foolish.
Possibly (and he thinks it possible) he could now at that moment be humiliated against his own will and 'chained' — if and before his dispersed forces reassemble. So - as soon as he has mentally rejected repentance - he (just like Sauron after-wards on this model) makes a mockery of self-abasement and repentance. From which actually he gets a kind of perverted pleasure as in desecrating something holy - [for the mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his true primeval nature.] He feigns remorse and repentance. He actually kneels before Manwë and surrenders — in the first instance to avoid being chained by the Chain Angainor, which once upon him he fears would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he has the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he offers to become 'the least of the Valar' and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he has done. It is this offer which seduces or deludes Manwë - Manwë must be shown to have his own inherent fault (though not sin): he has become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering — even 'keeping the status quo' — to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. Against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he grants Melkor's prayer.

and, Mith, Manwe is weakened by "the inherent fault", or as a reaction to Melkor's acticities. If Arda was not marred, there would be no cause for Manwe's weariness, for there would be no cause for "sheer fear", which is not natural in the original plan. Ainur are not supposed to expirience fear. And, though in Silm77 Morgoth is named to be the only one of the Valar to feel it, there it meant fear of physical pain, or even death. But anyways, Manwe was not righteous while fearing, even if it was understandable, still less desiring control over Melkor. So good ainur power disperses when they do not act in a way propriate to them. And valar made mighty big deal of mistakes along the way. Remember Aule - he suits well in both cases - as a righteous one offering his gift to his Creator (dwarves part II), and as a rebel spirit, making something of his own, but without succes despite his Creator's will (dwarves part I). Both parts are linked by the act of repentance on Aule's part. The act washes sin commited clean, without it Aule's deed is on the same level (or almost on the same level, for by this time Melkor already lost ability to make, and was apt to pervert only) as Melkor's doings are.

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: HerenIstarion ]