Could Ainur reproduce?

[Noxomanus]

This really wonders me.We know examples of Ainur producing offspring (Melian and possibly the great Eagles and Ungoliant) but this was all with other,lesser creatures,not among myself but could this be possible?
I also wonder if the Wizards could have had sex with Elves or mortals and have fathered children....maybe this was why Allatar & Pallando seem to have failed [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] But seriously,they may have had this as a restriction of their powers as well,in wich they were also tested.They seem to have gotten human nature and emotions as they were incarnated in human flesh,so they might have been able to fall in love or get.....umm......."excited" as well. Or maybe,to help to keep them true to their mission they were without genitals [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] !!!!! But most of all I wonder if great,non-incarnated Ainur would have been able to do so among themselves....though we never hear of new pure Ainur having been born out of others.
Just wonder.

[Noxomanus]

hmmmm.........as you might have noticed,some sentences consist of misplaced words [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ..........I hope you don't mind..

[Annunfuiniel]

Hmm, I wonder what'll be the faith of this thread... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] But I think an answer can be given to your question about the reproduction of the Ainur.
In the Book of Lost Tales (eg. in The Music of the Ainur and The Coming of the Valar chapters) there indeed appear children of the Ainur:

With him[Manwë] was Varda the Beautiful, and she became his spouse and is Queen of the Stars, and their children were Fionwë-Úrion and Erinti most lovely.

But in the Commentary on the Music of the Ainur CT writes:

Erinti later became Ilmarë 'hand-maid of Varda'[...]. Fionwë, his name long afterwards changed to Ëonwë, endured to become the Herald of Manwë, when the idea of 'the Children of the Valar' was abandoned.

(bold is my amendment)
Hope that helps, Noxomanus. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

The answer appears to be that Tolkien originally believed the Ainur could reproduce, (thus the 'Children of the Gods' in the early drafts) but as his conception of them became more spiritualized decided that they could not.

Most Ainur don't have physical bodies but rather wear semblances of the same in order to interact more easily with the material world of Arda. These seeming bodies are incapable of reproduction.

Melian however assumed a true body of flesh and blood in order to marry Thingol. This body *was* capable of reproducing, (ie: Luthien).

It is likely that the Wizards, being also clothed in bodies of actual flesh, are capable of sexual union and begetting offspring. This is not to say that any of them have necessarily done so but it is possible.

The concept of Pallando or Alatar falling in love and abandoning their mission because of it is an interesting one. It *could* have happened so - and would make a good fanfic.

[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]

[obloquy]

The Ainur could reproduce. The abandoning of the idea of the Children of the Valar does not necessarily indicate otherwise. All it took was a bodily form. Tolkien explains that begetting was an especially 'incarnating' activity for an ëala.

As for the Valar in particular, someone would doubtless point to this from Osanwe-kenta:

The great Valar do not do these things: they beget not, neither do they eat and drink, save at the high asari, in token of their lordship and indwelling of Arda, and for the blessing of the sustenance of the Children.

But notice that it says that they 'do not do these things', as opposed to cannot. In the previous paragraph Tolkien states that "it seems clear that there was no axan [axani: rules, laws from Eru] against these things." There also may be an intentional distinction here between your typical Vala and 'the great Valar', which could refer specifically to the Aratar. In any case, it was possible for the Valar to reproduce, they just didn't.

These seeming bodies are incapable of reproduction.

They weren't, actually. Reproducing just bound them more irrevocably to their 'raiment', so that they would eventually become incarnate. You might enjoy my article.

Ëalar and Incarnation.

Sorry for the frequent edits.

[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Noxomanus]

So you think it would be possible for the Valar themselves to reproduce when they took a incarnate form, but just didn't do it?Interesting.Sadly,we never hear of Ainur hybridising with humans,dwarves or hobbits,I wonder if that would have lead to immortal offspring. As for the Wizards,I surely hope for them they did have genitals! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Ainaserkewen]

I wanted to do a thread very similar but broader like this one, but I never got around to it.
I'm curious as well. Being Human(in human form anyway) you'd think that they'd have "urges" anyway. But Tolkien doesn't mention any aspect of this uh, branch of history. It's like it almost didn't matter! Heaven forbid!!!
I'm stumped. Maybe it just never came up.

[Mattius]

Here is a link for a similar thread where Keeper of Dol Goldur is arguing that Beorn is the son of Radagast and a human woman and that therefore the Wizards could have children.

EDIT: Perhaps I better add the link, it would help-
Of Beorn

[ April 29, 2003: Message edited by: Mattius ]

[Morima]

Argh Noxomanus, the mental images!! Don't even go there! (In joke. Have you peeps read OFUM at Henneth Annun?) But jokes aside, I've been wondering about that myself, really; I'm always musing on practical matters like that in stories. I think the logical thing would be, at least concerning the Wizards, that they're bound to a mortal body with all that comes with it of human instincts and such. And those are very strong in us! But I tend to doubt that they ever followed those, at least not when it comes to reproducing, and I think that's so simply because it seems logical.

I think in some Terry Pratchett-world the Wizards live in celibacy when it comes to sex, and perhaps it's like that in Tolkiens world as well. Just a thought. But it seems likely to me, considering how deeply they concentrate on other things.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Well if the Professor says they can but don't, than that's the final word. But what is this Osanwe-kenta? Something else I've got to buy? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Of course that would explain Goldberry if not Tom. She's said to be the 'Riverwoman's Daughter' after all. Presumably the minor water Maia associated with the Withywindle had a liason with *somebody* (Man, Elf, Istari) and produced Goldberry, who for reasons forever inexplicable to any but Eru himself married Tom Bombadil.

[obloquy]

Osanwe-kenta was an essay published in the journal Vinyar Tengwar. You can purchase individual issues for cheap here: Vinyar Tengwar

As for your Goldberry theory: bleh. Why is Maia (or Maia-hybrid) the catch-all race for beings whose origins aren't fully explained? Like that ridiculously tenuous Beorn theory linked to above.

[ April 30, 2003: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

Well she's not an Elf and certainly not a Mortal Woman, and said to be 'the Riverwoman' daughter'. You got a better suggestion for her origins?

Re. Beorn: All evidence indicates he is a Mortal Man dispite his odd ability to change into a bear. Where or how he gained that power is anybody's guess - but I can't help thinking a half-Maiar would have a greater repetoire.

[Elora]

I think it's worthwhile to suggest that there may be a very good reason why characters such as Tom B, Goldberry and Beorn remain mysterious and unexplained.

Tolkien was creating a mythology for Britian, a fictional ancient history in the manner of those owned by other cultures around the globe. Located in an "earth like" setting, it had all manner of fantastical creatures and events. Even some of the land masses Tolkien envisionaged vaguely resembled continents of Earth.

His imagined world was without a doubt complete with detail on so many events, cultures, people and languages. It's scope and breadth remain to be a defining feature that sets his work apart from others in the speculative fiction genre.

As with reality, mysterious things had a place in Middle-earth too. There are some things that he never intended to explain. The possibilities of his world were enhanced. Not even the wisest knew everything. The world went beyond what was explained by the characters or the narration of the books.

It's possible Tom and Goldberry are Maia... but it's equally possible that they are simply devices used to add even more scope to Tolkien's "world" - the unanswered mystery. Beorn is another unanswerable mystery.

I kinda like leaving their riddles unanswered as the good Professor wished. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Morwen Tindomerel]

I believe the Professor is on record as saying Tom was meant to be an enigma. To be quite honest Bombadil is a mystery I am not at all interested in solving [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Why Old Tom irritates me so I cannot say, but he surely does. Goldberrry on the other hand is clearly happy living with him, I guess there's no accounting for taste.

[tom bombariffic]

Oooh I love a nice bombadil debate. But i agree with obloquy, its absurd the way that anything not immediately obvious is assumed to be a maia or maia hybrid. If Tom is an enigma, then its fairly likely that goldberry is too - perhaps the world hadn't fully taken shape in Tolkien's mind when he wrote "the adventures of Tom Bombadil" and he didn't know what exactly tom, goldberry and Old man Willow were, so that they don't have to conform to the rules of the world he later created. But, much as i hate to say it, we're kinda straying off the topic. Tom and Goldberry would probably have no desire to reproduce, and as for maia, ive got no idea.

[Legolas]

The concept of Pallando or Alatar falling in love and abandoning their mission because of it is an interesting one. It *could* have happened so - and would make a good fanfic.

That would make a dire fan-fiction. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

It's possible Tom and Goldberry are Maia... but it's equally possible that they are simply devices used to add even more scope to Tolkien's "world" - the unanswered mystery.

It's not possible they were Maiar. They could have been, except Tolkien said that one was an enigma and the other a riverwoman - just like Faramir could've been an elf, except Tolkien decided otherwise. Also, at the Council of Elrond it is stated that if Middle-earth goes down, Tom would go right with it. This is stated by Glorfindel, who has come from Valinor to aid the resistance to Sauron like Gandalf (they arrived together in one of the two accounts Tolkien wrote). Glorfindel lived among Maiar for a long time (between his death in the Fall of Gondolin and his arrival in the Third Age) and is even said to have been friends with Gandalf prior to their mission:

We can thus understand why he seems so powerful a figure and almost 'angelic'. For he had returned to the primitive innocence of the First-born, and had then lived among those Elves who had never rebelled, and in the companionship of the Maiar for ages: from the last years of the First Age, through the Second Age, to the end of the first millennium of the Third Age: before he returned to Middle-earth. It is indeed probable that he had in Valinor already become a friend and follower of Olorin.

His comment on Bombadil:

'Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.'

If he was a Maia, he could wobble on back to Valinor, couldn't he? Also, if he came before Melkor, he would not be a Maia, since Maiar came into the world with the Valar to serve them. There's also the obvious observation that the Ring did not affect him while it would Gandalf or Saruman. For more on Maiar and Tolkien's take on Bombadil analyzation, refer to the threads titled "uh.. wots a maiar ???/" and "Bombadil = yearning?"

Beorn is another unanswerable mystery.

He was just a man who knew magic. We're told relatively nothing about the magics of Middle-earth. It's clear he was just a man with experience in magic.

[ May 01, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

[Elora]

Legolas, confidently argued! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I guess I favour the enigma argument, as hinted by my earlier reply. I am a little reluctant myself to utterly discount the Maia theory for the characters either, as I find the debate interesting while ever varying theories continue.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

"Tom and Goldberry would probably have no desire to reproduce."

Eru but I hope you're right about that! Baby Bombadils don't even bear thinking about [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[tom bombariffic]

On the contrary, baby bombadils would be marvellous! Old man Willow wouldn't know what hit him. And GOldberry would be an excellent mum.

[Morwen Tindomerel]

No offense, Tom, but as far as I'm concerned one Bombadil is one too many. Yes, I am one of those tiresome, lacking people who do not appreciate Tom Bombadil. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

P.S.: But Goldberry probably *would* make a great mother. Maybe if the kids took after *her*.....

[ May 02, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]