Balrogs and Sauron - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

03-01-2002, 06:16 PM

This may have been brought up before or it was obviously stated in one of Tolkien's most common books , but anyways...

Would Sauron be able to control the Balrogs? You have to put in concideration that they are all Maia. And another question I have is what is the extent (if any) of the Balrogs "magical" abilities. Sauron seemed to be on the powerful side and since they all come from the same place and time , wouldn't the Balrogs have similar abilities?

Mayla Took · 03-01-2002, 06:21 PM

Humm, good question! Well, Sauron did create the Balrogs, so it seems logical that he would be able to "control" them. I don't know if he would be able to force them to do anything, but he would be able to influence their minds and/or way of thought. I don't really know if they are magical, posses a type of evil sorcery I believe. Not the sophisticated type of sorcery, but just the elementary type where they would be able to use fiery swords and whips!

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-01-2002, 06:32 PM

Sauron didn't create the Balrogs!

Quote:

Yet so great was the power of his {Morgoth's} uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwë and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

Silmarillion, Valaquenta

The Balrogs were Maiar, the same order of spirits as Sauron.

Mayla Took · 03-01-2002, 06:37 PM

Oh, I see. But in a way, he did creat them (creat them in evil) because as you quoted

Quote:

and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

He "corrupted" them "afterwards". He created there evil being!

Bruce MacCulloch · 03-01-2002, 06:47 PM

No, he didn't. The passage refers to Morgoth, not Sauron. In fact, Sauron was one of those Maiar corrupted by Morgoth.

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ]

Mayla Took · 03-01-2002, 07:09 PM

Okay, you probably know more about this than I do. I guess I am not officaly obbessed yet.

obloquy · 03-01-2002, 08:08 PM

There's plenty of good information on this if you go back through the old BD threads.

03-01-2002, 08:12 PM

Ok first off Sauron did not create Balrogs, nor did he influence them, nor did he command them. In the Sil there are ARMIES of Balrogs, I believe that only 6 survived, one that settled in Moria. Sauron was a mair, (however you want to spell it, the important thing is that Sauron and Balrogs are of the same thing.) All of the mair were mentioned in the Song of Ainur, this means that Illuvitar made all of them, including Sauron. Melkor was the one who influenced them to become evil, but he made Sauron a Lieutenat, and captain of his palace. Melkor controlled the Balrogs, Sauron never did "control" them, probably just gave them homes in strategic places. As for powers, Sauron could beat the crap out of any Balrog, in the Sil it says Sauron could turn into any shape he wanted! he even turns into a vampire to escape Huin the hound. And besides that some of Melkor went into Sauron! So the line of power goes like this, Maya, Sauron (the Istari) other mair (Bolrogs, and other demos) then probably Elves, and all the rest are about even, I think.

03-01-2002, 08:34 PM

So , in other words. Sauron was made to be a right hand man of Morgoth/Melkor while the Balrogs were designed to do the grunt work before the orcs, trolls etc. came along. They were probably made for the destruction of the Valar's works.

03-01-2002, 08:34 PM

So , in other words. Sauron was made to be a right hand man of Morgoth/Melkor while the Balrogs were designed to do the grunt work before the orcs, trolls etc. came along. They were probably made for the destruction of the Valar's works.

Aralaithiel · 03-01-2002, 09:38 PM

Something like that, I believe.

Thingol · 03-01-2002, 11:13 PM

It is questionable whether or not there were armies of Balrogs. See The Witch King and Gothmog, The Seven Thanes of Morgoth, and Bye Bye Balrogs. Obloquy and I have a good debate in the first two threads about the number of Balrogs in existance. There might have been as few as 3 Balrogs in existance. Personally, I'm of the opinion that there were more like 15-20 Balrogs, with several being killed in the Battle of the Powers. Sauron did not put the Balrogs where they are located, the Balrogs are Maiar with their own wills, created by Illuvitar, and corrupted by Melkor. Any Balrogs that were left in the world at the time of the Third Age (it is possible that Durin's Bane was the only Balrog to survive, even if I don't believe that) fled during The War of Wrath (the battle where Melkor was overthrown). The Balrog of Moria and Sauron at least had an understanding, considering that Sauron's orcs had been cohabiting with the Balrog for several hundred years. Without the Ring I do not think that the Sauron would have been able to control the Balrog. However, with the Ring Sauron probably would have been able to use the Balrog to attack Lorien or perhaps Rivendell (Sauron was deprived of Smaug; in the appendices it hints that Sauron might have used Smaug to do terrible damage to Eriador and Rivendell). The power of Balrogs was not in assaulting armies, but in fighting beings of great power, like elf lords or other Maiar (Gandalf).

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

03-01-2002, 06:16 PM	#1
steffeck Guest Posts: n/a	Balrogs and Sauron This may have been brought up before or it was obviously stated in one of Tolkien's most common books , but anyways... Would Sauron be able to control the Balrogs? You have to put in concideration that they are all Maia. And another question I have is what is the extent (if any) of the Balrogs "magical" abilities. Sauron seemed to be on the powerful side and since they all come from the same place and time , wouldn't the Balrogs have similar abilities?

03-01-2002, 06:21 PM	#2
Mayla Took Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 152	Humm, good question! Well, Sauron did create the Balrogs, so it seems logical that he would be able to "control" them. I don't know if he would be able to force them to do anything, but he would be able to influence their minds and/or way of thought. I don't really know if they are magical, posses a type of evil sorcery I believe. Not the sophisticated type of sorcery, but just the elementary type where they would be able to use fiery swords and whips! __________________ Good Things Come in Small Packages. (And don't you forget it!) Pippin:"What is that?!?" Merry:"This, my friend, is a pint!" Pippin:"It comes in PINTS?!?....I'm getting one!" "Don't let your heads get too big for your hats! But if you don't finish growing up soon, you are going to find hats and clothes expensive." Bilbo to Merry and Pippin "Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party. Throw yourself in next time, and then you will be no further nuisance. Now be quiet!" Gandalf to Pippin in Moria E-mail me at mailto:ThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.comThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.com</A> Oh, and please rate me. THANKS!

03-01-2002, 06:47 PM	#5
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	No, he didn't. The passage refers to Morgoth, not Sauron. In fact, Sauron was one of those Maiar corrupted by Morgoth. [ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Bruce MacCulloch ] __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

03-01-2002, 07:09 PM	#6
Mayla Took Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: The Shire Posts: 152	Okay, you probably know more about this than I do. I guess I am not officaly obbessed yet. __________________ Good Things Come in Small Packages. (And don't you forget it!) Pippin:"What is that?!?" Merry:"This, my friend, is a pint!" Pippin:"It comes in PINTS?!?....I'm getting one!" "Don't let your heads get too big for your hats! But if you don't finish growing up soon, you are going to find hats and clothes expensive." Bilbo to Merry and Pippin "Fool of a Took! This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party. Throw yourself in next time, and then you will be no further nuisance. Now be quiet!" Gandalf to Pippin in Moria E-mail me at mailto:ThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.comThirdAgeHobbit@hotmail.com</A> Oh, and please rate me. THANKS!

03-01-2002, 09:38 PM	#11
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Something like that, I believe. __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-01-2002, 08:08 PM	#7
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	There's plenty of good information on this if you go back through the old BD threads.

03-01-2002, 08:12 PM	#8
sk8er74t Guest Posts: n/a	Ok first off Sauron did not create Balrogs, nor did he influence them, nor did he command them. In the Sil there are ARMIES of Balrogs, I believe that only 6 survived, one that settled in Moria. Sauron was a mair, (however you want to spell it, the important thing is that Sauron and Balrogs are of the same thing.) All of the mair were mentioned in the Song of Ainur, this means that Illuvitar made all of them, including Sauron. Melkor was the one who influenced them to become evil, but he made Sauron a Lieutenat, and captain of his palace. Melkor controlled the Balrogs, Sauron never did "control" them, probably just gave them homes in strategic places. As for powers, Sauron could beat the crap out of any Balrog, in the Sil it says Sauron could turn into any shape he wanted! he even turns into a vampire to escape Huin the hound. And besides that some of Melkor went into Sauron! So the line of power goes like this, Maya, Sauron (the Istari) other mair (Bolrogs, and other demos) then probably Elves, and all the rest are about even, I think.

03-01-2002, 08:34 PM	#9
steffeck Guest Posts: n/a	So , in other words. Sauron was made to be a right hand man of Morgoth/Melkor while the Balrogs were designed to do the grunt work before the orcs, trolls etc. came along. They were probably made for the destruction of the Valar's works.

03-01-2002, 11:13 PM	#12
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	It is questionable whether or not there were armies of Balrogs. See The Witch King and Gothmog, The Seven Thanes of Morgoth, and Bye Bye Balrogs. Obloquy and I have a good debate in the first two threads about the number of Balrogs in existance. There might have been as few as 3 Balrogs in existance. Personally, I'm of the opinion that there were more like 15-20 Balrogs, with several being killed in the Battle of the Powers. Sauron did not put the Balrogs where they are located, the Balrogs are Maiar with their own wills, created by Illuvitar, and corrupted by Melkor. Any Balrogs that were left in the world at the time of the Third Age (it is possible that Durin's Bane was the only Balrog to survive, even if I don't believe that) fled during The War of Wrath (the battle where Melkor was overthrown). The Balrog of Moria and Sauron at least had an understanding, considering that Sauron's orcs had been cohabiting with the Balrog for several hundred years. Without the Ring I do not think that the Sauron would have been able to control the Balrog. However, with the Ring Sauron probably would have been able to use the Balrog to attack Lorien or perhaps Rivendell (Sauron was deprived of Smaug; in the appendices it hints that Sauron might have used Smaug to do terrible damage to Eriador and Rivendell). The power of Balrogs was not in assaulting armies, but in fighting beings of great power, like elf lords or other Maiar (Gandalf). [ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.