How did the One Ring return to ME? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elrond of Rivendell · 12-21-2003, 01:13 PM

Hi,
I have already used the search function, but I haven't found an answer to this question:
It is said in Akallabeth that after the fall of Numenor, the body of Sauron was drowned and he came ghostlike back to Middle-Earth. So how was he able to take the One Ring with him? There is of course the alternative that he didn't bring it to Numenor in the first place, but then where should he have left it? Was there any "person" enough trustworthy left behind in Middle-Earth?
Greetings,
EfR

lathspell · 12-21-2003, 01:51 PM

I remember this has come up before as a small sidetrack in a discussion. I believe that the outcome was that he left it at Barad-dur when he 'was taken' to Numenor. Once he had taken shape again the Ring would be waiting for him.

I think I can read up on this, so I'll try to do that tomorrow.

greetings,
lathspell

Finwe · 12-21-2003, 02:07 PM

I believe that Sauron left the Ring in Barad-dur, in a sort of safe or something, and went to Numenor. He knew that if Ar-Pharazon got his hands on the Ring, or heard about the Ring, many awkward questions would be asked, and many awkward answers would have had to be given.

Elrond of Rivendell · 12-21-2003, 02:23 PM

I believe that Ar-Pharazon would have asked Sauron to surrender the One Ring, had he known about it. But in my eyes, no one in Numenor, not even the king, knew about the Great Ring. I remember reading somewhere that the Elves laid down their Three Rings and spoke to noone about the whole affair. Naturally, Ar-Pharazon could have demanded that Sauron surrender all that he possessed, but he would not have asked precisely for the ring. Greetings,
EfR

Olorin_TLA · 12-21-2003, 08:09 PM

Actually, Tolkien says that Saruon takes the One with him to Numenor; it helps him corrupt the peopel that much faster.

Apparently, eh carries it back through sheer will power/wind of his windy-spirit.

Elrond of Rivendell · 12-22-2003, 05:58 AM

Okay, it seems that I missed out that passage of Tolkien saying the One Ring went actually to Numenor. So apparently Ar-Pharazon wasn't aware of the Ring (or at least of its great power and significance). Greetings,
EfR

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:58 AM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Elrond of Rivendell ]

Olorin_TLA · 12-22-2003, 06:13 AM

Ah wlel it was in Tolkein's Letters, ands I only found out (I think [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) from actually seeing soemthing on theonering.net about this, so it's easier to miss it than find it. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Lord Elrond · 12-22-2003, 11:27 AM

Also Elrond of Rivendell keep in mind that Sauron was a Maiar spirit who had not yet been destroyed so he wouldn't have ceased to exist even if the ring was not yet made. Maiar spirits bodies die but when the bodies die the spirit endures(usually in some way) as did Gandalfs Saurumans and Saurons(more than once).

12-22-2003, 12:48 PM

You are perfectly right Lord Elrond, but my initial question centered on how Sauron's fea (I'm not sure whether I am allowed to use this term together with Sauron's spirit), after having left Sauron's hroa, was able ALONE to carry the ring. Olorin has given an explanation, but lacking of sources IMHO, the power of Sauron's windy-spirit does not convince me very much. But as I have said, I presently have not Tolkien's letters with me, so I have to wait.
Added: I now have read Turin's post. The idea of Sauron levitating the ring does not convince me, but it may definitely be that this is the real explanation.
Thanks nevertheless for your precisions Olorin.
Greetings,
EfR (this is not a fake, I actually have registered twice, for some reason that lies now in the darkness and is forgotten)

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:50 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Silent Watcher ]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:51 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Silent Watcher ]

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-22-2003, 12:48 PM

So, was Sauron able to somehow levitate the ring so that it came with him back to barad-dur? all of the expanations so far seem somehow... lacking.

Olorin_TLA · 12-22-2003, 05:48 PM

Well bear in mind his form in Numenor wasn't a hroa - it was simply a form for his spirit, like clothing. So at that point his spiirit wasn't houseless, at least not in a diembodied-fea way...

Elrond of Rivendell · 12-22-2003, 06:05 PM

Oh great. This is a good idea. Somewhat it does convince me. So your point is that Sauron in fact has 3 different "levels" of being: 1. his fea; 2. his hroa; 3. his clothes (=his physical appearance that can be seen by others)? A drowning or other killing can only destroy his "clothes", whereas fea and hroa remain intact, who could easily carry The One Ring.
Thanks,
EfR

Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar · 12-22-2003, 07:54 PM

No, he is a Maiar, and as such does not have a hroa. This is my understanding.

But still, was Sauron material as he returned to Barad-dur from Numenor, or not?

Earendilyon · 12-23-2003, 04:30 AM

From Letter 211:

Quote:

Sauron's personal 'surrender' was voluntary and cunning: he got free transport to Numenor! He naturally had the One Ring, and so very soon dominated the minds and wills of most of the Númenóreans. (I do not think Ar-Pharazôn knew anything about the One Ring. The Elves kept the matter of the Rings very secret, as long as they could. (....) The change of names [of the Kings] went with a complete rejection of the Elf-friendship, and of the 'theological' teaching the Númenóreans had received from them.)
Sauron was first defeated by a 'miracle': a direct action of God the Creator, changing the fashion of the world, when appealed to by Manwë: see III p. 317. Though reduced to 'a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of dominating minds now largely depended. That Sauron was not himself destroyed in the anger of the One is not my fault: the problem of evil, and its apparent toleration, is a permanent one for all who concern themselves with our world. The indestructibility of spirits with free wills, even by the Creator of them, is also an inevitable feature, if one either believes in their existence, or feigns it in a story.

Also in the same letter (next paragraph) some comments on the "easy" success of the Last Aliance:

Quote:

Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established.

As the second quote speaks of 'bodily rehabilitation', it is clear that he was bodily incarnate on Middle Earth and in Núménor, before the Downfall of the latter. (I think the Silm often enough states likewise.)

12-21-2003, 01:13 PM	#1
Elrond of Rivendell Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 261	How did the One Ring return to ME? Hi, I have already used the search function, but I haven't found an answer to this question: It is said in Akallabeth that after the fall of Numenor, the body of Sauron was drowned and he came ghostlike back to Middle-Earth. So how was he able to take the One Ring with him? There is of course the alternative that he didn't bring it to Numenor in the first place, but then where should he have left it? Was there any "person" enough trustworthy left behind in Middle-Earth? Greetings, EfR

12-21-2003, 01:51 PM	#2
lathspell Regenerating Ringkeeper Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 757	I remember this has come up before as a small sidetrack in a discussion. I believe that the outcome was that he left it at Barad-dur when he 'was taken' to Numenor. Once he had taken shape again the Ring would be waiting for him. I think I can read up on this, so I'll try to do that tomorrow. greetings, lathspell __________________ 'You?' cried Frodo. 'Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming.'

12-21-2003, 02:07 PM	#3
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I believe that Sauron left the Ring in Barad-dur, in a sort of safe or something, and went to Numenor. He knew that if Ar-Pharazon got his hands on the Ring, or heard about the Ring, many awkward questions would be asked, and many awkward answers would have had to be given. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-21-2003, 08:09 PM	#5
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Actually, Tolkien says that Saruon takes the One with him to Numenor; it helps him corrupt the peopel that much faster. Apparently, eh carries it back through sheer will power/wind of his windy-spirit. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-22-2003, 06:13 AM	#7
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Ah wlel it was in Tolkein's Letters, ands I only found out (I think [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) from actually seeing soemthing on theonering.net about this, so it's easier to miss it than find it. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-21-2003, 02:23 PM	#4
Elrond of Rivendell Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 261	I believe that Ar-Pharazon would have asked Sauron to surrender the One Ring, had he known about it. But in my eyes, no one in Numenor, not even the king, knew about the Great Ring. I remember reading somewhere that the Elves laid down their Three Rings and spoke to noone about the whole affair. Naturally, Ar-Pharazon could have demanded that Sauron surrender all that he possessed, but he would not have asked precisely for the ring. Greetings, EfR

12-22-2003, 05:58 AM	#6
Elrond of Rivendell Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 261	Okay, it seems that I missed out that passage of Tolkien saying the One Ring went actually to Numenor. So apparently Ar-Pharazon wasn't aware of the Ring (or at least of its great power and significance). Greetings, EfR <font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:58 AM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Elrond of Rivendell ]

12-22-2003, 11:27 AM	#8
Lord Elrond Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Buffalo Posts: 38	Also Elrond of Rivendell keep in mind that Sauron was a Maiar spirit who had not yet been destroyed so he wouldn't have ceased to exist even if the ring was not yet made. Maiar spirits bodies die but when the bodies die the spirit endures(usually in some way) as did Gandalfs Saurumans and Saurons(more than once). __________________ "May the blessing of Elves, Men, and other free peoples go with you"

12-22-2003, 12:48 PM	#9
Silent Watcher Guest Posts: n/a	You are perfectly right Lord Elrond, but my initial question centered on how Sauron's fea (I'm not sure whether I am allowed to use this term together with Sauron's spirit), after having left Sauron's hroa, was able ALONE to carry the ring. Olorin has given an explanation, but lacking of sources IMHO, the power of Sauron's windy-spirit does not convince me very much. But as I have said, I presently have not Tolkien's letters with me, so I have to wait. Added: I now have read Turin's post. The idea of Sauron levitating the ring does not convince me, but it may definitely be that this is the real explanation. Thanks nevertheless for your precisions Olorin. Greetings, EfR (this is not a fake, I actually have registered twice, for some reason that lies now in the darkness and is forgotten) <font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:50 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Silent Watcher ] <font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:51 PM December 22, 2003: Message edited by: Silent Watcher ]

12-22-2003, 12:48 PM	#10
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	So, was Sauron able to somehow levitate the ring so that it came with him back to barad-dur? all of the expanations so far seem somehow... lacking. __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!

12-22-2003, 05:48 PM	#11
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Well bear in mind his form in Numenor wasn't a hroa - it was simply a form for his spirit, like clothing. So at that point his spiirit wasn't houseless, at least not in a diembodied-fea way... __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

12-22-2003, 06:05 PM	#12
Elrond of Rivendell Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 261	Oh great. This is a good idea. Somewhat it does convince me. So your point is that Sauron in fact has 3 different "levels" of being: 1. his fea; 2. his hroa; 3. his clothes (=his physical appearance that can be seen by others)? A drowning or other killing can only destroy his "clothes", whereas fea and hroa remain intact, who could easily carry The One Ring. Thanks, EfR

12-22-2003, 07:54 PM	#13
Tuor Turambar,Cursed by the Valar Wight Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Somewhere, wandering in middle earth... Posts: 137	No, he is a Maiar, and as such does not have a hroa. This is my understanding. But still, was Sauron material as he returned to Barad-dur from Numenor, or not? __________________ Turin Turambar, Master of Fate, by Fate Mastered. No, im not turin. Or tuor. Or anyone. I am not!