First Darkness? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

rudeboy · 10-31-2003, 10:04 AM

In Lord of the Rings, Gandalf says that Sauron needs only the one ring to cover all the lands in a second darkness! When was the first darkness? Was it the dark years? I dont really undertstand because I thought Sauron was defeated before he conqured all the lands! When were the dark years and how long did they last?

Elentári_O_Most_Mighty_1 · 10-31-2003, 11:19 AM

That's a good question. I've never been too sure myself.
*Goes and looks up Robert Foster's Guide*
It says here:

Quote:

Dark Years The years of Sauron's great and almost undisputed domination of Middle-earth, during which many peoples were enslaved or corrupted. The Dark Years lasted from c. SA 1000, when Sauron settled in Mordor, to 3441, when he was overthrown by the Last Alliance. During this period Sauron built the Barad Dûr, forged the Rings of Power, and won the War of the Elves and Sauron.

Hope that helps somewhat. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
If anyone wants to dispute this, feel free.

ArathorofBarahir · 11-02-2003, 01:45 PM

Sounds pretty accurate to me so I have no reason to argue. By the way, what is the name of that book you got the quote from? Robert Fosters guide to what?

Finwe · 11-02-2003, 03:31 PM

The full title is "Robert Foster's Guide to Middle-earth" (fairly self-explanatory). You can probably find it at www.amazon.com or in most bookstores. If your local bookstore doens't have it in stock, then most likely they will order it for you, and call you when it comes in.

Olorin_TLA · 11-02-2003, 05:03 PM

Yep, when Sauron forged the Ring in 1600 (Second Age) and the Elves saw his true colours and so denied him their rings, he waged a War on them which menat not only did he have his already-"owned" territories of much of the Osuth and East, but he destroyed Eriador, including Hollin, schorched the feritle lands south of Mirkwood so badly that they were forever after known as the Brown Lands, probably hunted and killed the Ent Wives, and caused Numenor to be destroyed. Pretty Dark. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Finwe · 11-02-2003, 05:11 PM

He didn't cause Numenor to be destroyed right then. That was much later, after Ar-Pharazon came to the throne. But he did extend his "feelers" of Darkness over Numenor, so that its Kings became discontented with the Elvish influences coming from Aman.

Olorin_TLA · 11-02-2003, 05:26 PM

Ah, but he did and did not. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Eru drowned Numenor, because of the idea Sauron had put in the King's already evil mind; becuase of the Morgoth-worshippijg society he'd truned Numenor into.

So while he didn't press the Smite button, he (and indeed the Numenorena's own pride) caused the Downfall.

Eggy · 11-03-2003, 06:03 AM

But by the "first darkness" was gandalf not refering to the time when Melkor broke the long seige that the elves had cast upon him in the first age and covered all the lands in of middle earth in "darkness"...

Olorin_TLA · 11-03-2003, 08:01 AM

That's an earleir Darkness, but I think he's reffering specifically to Saruon's personal Darkness.
Especially because Morgoth had several periods of Darkenss before being defeated. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Eggy · 11-03-2003, 09:14 AM

but morgoth only covered the peoples of midle earth in darkness once!!! The time before the vala descovered the first born doesnt count!!!

Olorin_TLA · 11-03-2003, 03:46 PM

[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

samwise7 · 01-06-2008, 12:51 PM

I've always thought that line meant that in the beginning of the world it was dark.

To quote The Never Ending Story. "In the beginning, it is always dark."

Before Arda (Elbereth) made the stars, there was no light to speak of.

I vote that Morgoth and then Sauron liked that time before there was light, and wished to repeat it.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 01-10-2008, 12:51 PM

But Sauron could not have extinguished the stars, which Gandalf knew.

10-31-2003, 10:04 AM	#1
rudeboy Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Flitwick, Beds Posts: 47	First Darkness? In Lord of the Rings, Gandalf says that Sauron needs only the one ring to cover all the lands in a second darkness! When was the first darkness? Was it the dark years? I dont really undertstand because I thought Sauron was defeated before he conqured all the lands! When were the dark years and how long did they last?

11-02-2003, 01:45 PM	#3
ArathorofBarahir Wight Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Crickhallow Posts: 247	Sounds pretty accurate to me so I have no reason to argue. By the way, what is the name of that book you got the quote from? Robert Fosters guide to what? __________________ King of the Dead: The dead do not suffer the living to pass. Aragorn: You will suffer me.

11-02-2003, 03:31 PM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	The full title is "Robert Foster's Guide to Middle-earth" (fairly self-explanatory). You can probably find it at www.amazon.com or in most bookstores. If your local bookstore doens't have it in stock, then most likely they will order it for you, and call you when it comes in. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-02-2003, 05:03 PM	#5
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Yep, when Sauron forged the Ring in 1600 (Second Age) and the Elves saw his true colours and so denied him their rings, he waged a War on them which menat not only did he have his already-"owned" territories of much of the Osuth and East, but he destroyed Eriador, including Hollin, schorched the feritle lands south of Mirkwood so badly that they were forever after known as the Brown Lands, probably hunted and killed the Ent Wives, and caused Numenor to be destroyed. Pretty Dark. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

11-02-2003, 05:11 PM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	He didn't cause Numenor to be destroyed right then. That was much later, after Ar-Pharazon came to the throne. But he did extend his "feelers" of Darkness over Numenor, so that its Kings became discontented with the Elvish influences coming from Aman. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-02-2003, 05:26 PM	#7
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	Ah, but he did and did not. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Eru drowned Numenor, because of the idea Sauron had put in the King's already evil mind; becuase of the Morgoth-worshippijg society he'd truned Numenor into. So while he didn't press the Smite button, he (and indeed the Numenorena's own pride) caused the Downfall. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

11-03-2003, 06:03 AM	#8
Eggy Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Green land of Ireland Posts: 54	But by the "first darkness" was gandalf not refering to the time when Melkor broke the long seige that the elves had cast upon him in the first age and covered all the lands in of middle earth in "darkness"... __________________ "A dog this good you have to feed every day"Homer Simpson

11-03-2003, 08:01 AM	#9
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	That's an earleir Darkness, but I think he's reffering specifically to Saruon's personal Darkness. Especially because Morgoth had several periods of Darkenss before being defeated. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

11-03-2003, 09:14 AM	#10
Eggy Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Green land of Ireland Posts: 54	but morgoth only covered the peoples of midle earth in darkness once!!! The time before the vala descovered the first born doesnt count!!! __________________ "A dog this good you have to feed every day"Homer Simpson

11-03-2003, 03:46 PM	#11
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

01-06-2008, 12:51 PM	#12
samwise7 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Youngwood, Pa USA Posts: 21	I've always thought that line meant that in the beginning of the world it was dark. To quote The Never Ending Story. "In the beginning, it is always dark." Before Arda (Elbereth) made the stars, there was no light to speak of. I vote that Morgoth and then Sauron liked that time before there was light, and wished to repeat it. __________________ A sane being would have given up, but Samwise burned with a magnificent madness; a growing obsession to surmount every obstacle. He knew he would try again, fail perhaps, and try once more, a thousand thousand times if need be.

01-10-2008, 12:51 PM	#13
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	But Sauron could not have extinguished the stars, which Gandalf knew. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond Last edited by Eomer of the Rohirrim; 01-10-2008 at 12:52 PM. Reason: The counsel of the Wargs