Is Arwen A Princess? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Meela · 04-22-2003, 11:53 AM

I have seen Arwen stated as an elf princess in many reviews, and I was wondering if this was technically correct, as I don't recall Elrond being a king, unless there's something I've missed.

Manwe Sulimo · 04-22-2003, 12:02 PM

Let's see if I can remember this correctly.

Arwen <-- Elrond <--Elwing <--Dior <--Lúthien <--Thingol

-and-

Arwen <--Elrond <--Eärendil <--Idril <--Turgon

So, technically, Arwen is a princess, of both Doriath and Gondolin (if they still existed).

But, of course, she's a Queen now.

Legolas · 04-24-2003, 05:03 PM

She's not a princess as in daughter of a king or queen.

Beren87 · 04-24-2003, 11:21 PM

I'd give her the title of Lady, before that of princess. Elrond was after all, a Lord. Although, he was called that more just out of respect than anything. But a Lord is the proper form of address for a marquis, an earl, or a viscount. And, althought Elrond was appointed as one by a King or Queen, he did consider himself a lord of his realm, it was hardly large enough to be considered a kingdom after all.

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 04-25-2003, 01:18 AM

Yeah, I'd go with Beren on that one. Aragorn's not a prince even though he's the heir to a royal line, so Arwen's not necessarily a princess because she's descended from the rulers of both the Noldor and the Teleri (although that's impressive lineage [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]).

Noldorin King · 09-26-2003, 08:04 PM

Well, she might not be but she came from the noblest kin of Man and Elves...Elrond's mother, Elwing, was one and so was Luthien her grandmother...Elrond's father was Earendil, a prince of Gondolin and his grandfather was a Noldorin prince and king of Gondolin...Arwen's mother was a daughter of a Noldor princess, Galadriel and a prince of Doriath, Celeborn...While Galadriel's parents were both children of Elven kings, it would be very hard to tell that Arwen wasn't a princess...
Note: Finduilas was a princess while Idril and Aredhel weren't and both the fathers of the latter became Highking of the nOldor...

Elennar Starfire · 09-27-2003, 11:22 AM

Well...

Ar=noble
wen=feminine ending

so
Arwen=lady

The translation of 'princess' is aranel.
(I am fairly sure of this, please correct me if I'm wrong!)

Elfchick7 · 09-27-2003, 12:55 PM

Um... I believe that Arwen means noble Lady. According to the transaltion of the writing on Hadafang(Her sword). I could be wrong though. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Arwen1858 · 09-27-2003, 06:34 PM

Arwen means noble lady, but that doesn't mean she's not a princess.

Elfchick7 · 09-27-2003, 09:10 PM

Oh, I agree. By noble I meant it in the sense of having a noble personality not in the sense of nobility.

Arwen1858 · 09-28-2003, 12:31 AM

Elfchick, can you recieve private messages? I was going to send you one, but couldn't find a way to do it. Just wondered!
Arwen

Niluial · 09-30-2003, 02:09 PM

Well I looked up in a Tolkien Encyclopaedia and it says she is a princess of Rivendell. Arwen was the daughter of Elrond (half-elven) and Queen Celebrian. So that doesn’t really make her a princess of the King because technically Elrond was not a born prince, Celebrian was the born princess…

Niluial

[ September 30, 2003: Message edited by: Niluial ]

lore_master · 09-30-2003, 02:17 PM

well arwens mother, celebrain, was princess of lothlorien, her grand mother was queen, since celebrain went to the west doesnt that make Arwen heir to the throne of lorien, after Galadriel, and celeborn?

Niluial · 09-30-2003, 05:43 PM

Quote:

since celebrain went to the west doesnt that make Arwen heir to the throne of lorien, after Galadriel, and celeborn?

Well yes she did become Queen but she became Aragorn’s queen therefore through this marriage she chose to share the ultimate fate of all mortals.

~Niluial

[ September 30, 2003: Message edited by: Niluial ]

Legolas · 10-01-2003, 06:19 PM

Celebrian was not a Queen, nor was Galadriel. She was simple Lady of Lorien just as Celeborn was Lord.

Lumiel · 10-02-2003, 07:15 PM

*GASP!!!*

Of course she's a princess!

She's a Pretty Princess! (take that Disney)

I'm obsessed with Arwen, people actually call me Arwen...yeah, weird I know.

Sorry, had to stick in my worthless two cents here.

kittygirl02 · 10-03-2003, 11:03 AM

Yes, she is a princess because Galadriel and Celeborn were her grandparents,and Galadriel was/is an Elf queen. So, technicly,yes.

kittygirl02 · 10-03-2003, 11:05 AM

Okay, forget what I just said because I forgot. Celeborn(or his alter ego Celebrian) were just a lord and lady of Rivendell.

Silmiel of Imladris · 10-05-2003, 09:44 AM

Quote:

I am a princess, all girls are! Even if they live in tiny old attics, even if they dress in rags, even if they aren't pretty, or smart or young, we're still princesses, all of us. ~ Sara, A Little Princess

Thats all I have to say on this subject. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

kittygirl02 · 10-05-2003, 10:22 AM

I absolutly adore that qoute and love the book and movie. It brings tears to my eyes whenever I read it. god is king, and we are all his children, and, yes, we are all princes and princesess.

Jack · 10-05-2003, 01:07 PM

Hi Kitty girl, I agree with you and Silmiel of Imladris!

kittygirl02 · 10-05-2003, 01:14 PM

Oh, thank you. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Have a nice day! And I'll try to too.

Cibbwin · 10-05-2003, 08:51 PM

I agree with Beren87, Elrond is the "Lord of the Last Homely House", so I would call Arwen a Lady before anything.

'Sides, the word "princess" has been so Disney-atized to me that I loathe the word. :P

kittygirl02 · 10-06-2003, 02:50 PM

No, litarally.

lady evenstar · 10-08-2003, 05:35 PM

well arwen technically is a princess because she is the daughter of elrond who is the son of Elwing who is the daughter of King Dior who is the son of Luthien who is the daughter of Melian the Maia, queen of the Doriath. So there you have it. I did some studying on this.

Legolas · 10-08-2003, 06:43 PM

Not really. Doriath fell (and sank with Beleriand) and the Sindar dissassembled - established their own colonies in Middle-earth, mixing with the Silvan, and/or left Middle-earth for Aman. Dior's line ended with his sons dying in the Ruin of Doriath as well as his kingdom. Elwing was no longer a princess of Doriath after that, nor was Elrond a prince, nor was Arwen a princess.

Lasgalen · 10-09-2003, 12:47 AM

Why does Elwing stop being a princess because Doriath fell? These titles are inherited and don't depend on land.

Orofaniel · 10-09-2003, 06:08 AM

Elennar wrote:

Quote:

Ar=noble
wen=feminine ending

so
Arwen=lady

The translation of 'princess' is aranel.
(I am fairly sure of this, please correct me if I'm wrong!)

Well, the transelation of princess is 'aranel' in Quenya.

I think of Arwen as a lady. I have nothing more to add, because Beren87, Sophia and Legolas have said it all already. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Orald · 10-09-2003, 09:02 AM

A king rules over a kingdom, without a kingdom there isn't really a king.

As for Aranel. Aran- means King, but only King of a specified region. The same goes for the Ar- stem.

04-22-2003, 11:53 AM	#1
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	Is Arwen A Princess? I have seen Arwen stated as an elf princess in many reviews, and I was wondering if this was technically correct, as I don't recall Elrond being a king, unless there's something I've missed. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

04-22-2003, 12:02 PM	#2
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Let's see if I can remember this correctly. Arwen <-- Elrond <--Elwing <--Dior <--Lúthien <--Thingol -and- Arwen <--Elrond <--Eärendil <--Idril <--Turgon So, technically, Arwen is a princess, of both Doriath and Gondolin (if they still existed). But, of course, she's a Queen now. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

04-24-2003, 05:03 PM	#3
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	She's not a princess as in daughter of a king or queen. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

04-25-2003, 01:18 AM	#5
Sophia the Thunder Mistress Scent of Simbelmynë Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aboard Highwind, bound for Traverse Town Posts: 1,780	Yeah, I'd go with Beren on that one. Aragorn's not a prince even though he's the heir to a royal line, so Arwen's not necessarily a princess because she's descended from the rulers of both the Noldor and the Teleri (although that's impressive lineage [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). __________________ The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me!

09-27-2003, 11:22 AM	#7
Elennar Starfire Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2003 Location: Nowhere...now here Posts: 952	Well... Ar=noble wen=feminine ending so Arwen=lady The translation of 'princess' is aranel. (I am fairly sure of this, please correct me if I'm wrong!) __________________ Don't let me die!

04-24-2003, 11:21 PM	#4
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	I'd give her the title of Lady, before that of princess. Elrond was after all, a Lord. Although, he was called that more just out of respect than anything. But a Lord is the proper form of address for a marquis, an earl, or a viscount. And, althought Elrond was appointed as one by a King or Queen, he did consider himself a lord of his realm, it was hardly large enough to be considered a kingdom after all.

09-26-2003, 08:04 PM	#6
Noldorin King Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 30	Well, she might not be but she came from the noblest kin of Man and Elves...Elrond's mother, Elwing, was one and so was Luthien her grandmother...Elrond's father was Earendil, a prince of Gondolin and his grandfather was a Noldorin prince and king of Gondolin...Arwen's mother was a daughter of a Noldor princess, Galadriel and a prince of Doriath, Celeborn...While Galadriel's parents were both children of Elven kings, it would be very hard to tell that Arwen wasn't a princess... Note: Finduilas was a princess while Idril and Aredhel weren't and both the fathers of the latter became Highking of the nOldor...

09-27-2003, 12:55 PM	#8
Elfchick7 Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In the Greenwood Posts: 201	Um... I believe that Arwen means noble Lady. According to the transaltion of the writing on Hadafang(Her sword). I could be wrong though. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ "Yesterday is history. Tommorow is a mystery. Today is a gift from God. That's why it's called the PRESENT!"

09-27-2003, 06:34 PM	#9
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	Arwen means noble lady, but that doesn't mean she's not a princess. __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

09-27-2003, 09:10 PM	#10
Elfchick7 Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In the Greenwood Posts: 201	Oh, I agree. By noble I meant it in the sense of having a noble personality not in the sense of nobility. __________________ "Yesterday is history. Tommorow is a mystery. Today is a gift from God. That's why it's called the PRESENT!"

09-28-2003, 12:31 AM	#11
Arwen1858 Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Gondor Posts: 516	Elfchick, can you recieve private messages? I was going to send you one, but couldn't find a way to do it. Just wondered! Arwen __________________ Will Turner: "This is either madness or brilliance." Jack Sparrow: "It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide." ~ Pirates of the Caribbean

09-30-2003, 02:09 PM	#12
Niluial Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: In the darkness of white Posts: 601	Well I looked up in a Tolkien Encyclopaedia and it says she is a princess of Rivendell. Arwen was the daughter of Elrond (half-elven) and Queen Celebrian. So that doesn’t really make her a princess of the King because technically Elrond was not a born prince, Celebrian was the born princess… Niluial [ September 30, 2003: Message edited by: Niluial ] __________________ Life is not about how many breaths you take but about how many times it leaves you breathless. My rants, moans and groans in other words my Blog My Magical Site

09-30-2003, 02:17 PM	#13
lore_master Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Valhalla Posts: 116	well arwens mother, celebrain, was princess of lothlorien, her grand mother was queen, since celebrain went to the west doesnt that make Arwen heir to the throne of lorien, after Galadriel, and celeborn? __________________ As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think

10-01-2003, 06:19 PM	#15
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Celebrian was not a Queen, nor was Galadriel. She was simple Lady of Lorien just as Celeborn was Lord. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-02-2003, 07:15 PM	#16
Lumiel Registered User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Land of Mordor (MWUAHAHAHA!...ahem...) Posts: 95	GASP!!! Of course she's a princess! She's a Pretty Princess! (take that Disney) I'm obsessed with Arwen, people actually call me Arwen...yeah, weird I know. Sorry, had to stick in my worthless two cents here.

10-03-2003, 11:03 AM	#17
kittygirl02 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 61	Yes, she is a princess because Galadriel and Celeborn were her grandparents,and Galadriel was/is an Elf queen. So, technicly,yes. __________________ Flames are your source of faith.A tool of good, not evil. I may be different, but differences don't make you special.It's what you do with your differences that make you special.

10-03-2003, 11:05 AM	#18
kittygirl02 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 61	Okay, forget what I just said because I forgot. Celeborn(or his alter ego Celebrian) were just a lord and lady of Rivendell. __________________ Flames are your source of faith.A tool of good, not evil. I may be different, but differences don't make you special.It's what you do with your differences that make you special.

10-05-2003, 10:22 AM	#20
kittygirl02 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 61	I absolutly adore that qoute and love the book and movie. It brings tears to my eyes whenever I read it. god is king, and we are all his children, and, yes, we are all princes and princesess. __________________ Flames are your source of faith.A tool of good, not evil. I may be different, but differences don't make you special.It's what you do with your differences that make you special.

10-05-2003, 01:07 PM	#21
Jack Haunting Spirit Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Rohan or some where there abouts (probably lost!) Posts: 92	Hi Kitty girl, I agree with you and Silmiel of Imladris! __________________ I have been: eating sugar, drinking caffeinated soda, doing the wave, the disco and various other dances just as, if not more humiliating, and all in all, acting like the deranged Pirate that I am…

10-05-2003, 01:14 PM	#22
kittygirl02 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 61	Oh, thank you. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Have a nice day! And I'll try to too. __________________ Flames are your source of faith.A tool of good, not evil. I may be different, but differences don't make you special.It's what you do with your differences that make you special.

10-05-2003, 08:51 PM	#23
Cibbwin Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: California Posts: 145	I agree with Beren87, Elrond is the "Lord of the Last Homely House", so I would call Arwen a Lady before anything. 'Sides, the word "princess" has been so Disney-atized to me that I loathe the word. :P __________________ The Warrior Hobbit Nîn o Chithaeglir, lasto beth daer; Rimmo nîn Bruinen, dan in Ulaer!

10-06-2003, 02:50 PM	#24
kittygirl02 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Middle Earth Posts: 61	No, litarally. __________________ Flames are your source of faith.A tool of good, not evil. I may be different, but differences don't make you special.It's what you do with your differences that make you special.

10-08-2003, 05:35 PM	#25
lady evenstar Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 16	well arwen technically is a princess because she is the daughter of elrond who is the son of Elwing who is the daughter of King Dior who is the son of Luthien who is the daughter of Melian the Maia, queen of the Doriath. So there you have it. I did some studying on this.

10-08-2003, 06:43 PM	#26
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Not really. Doriath fell (and sank with Beleriand) and the Sindar dissassembled - established their own colonies in Middle-earth, mixing with the Silvan, and/or left Middle-earth for Aman. Dior's line ended with his sons dying in the Ruin of Doriath as well as his kingdom. Elwing was no longer a princess of Doriath after that, nor was Elrond a prince, nor was Arwen a princess. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-09-2003, 12:47 AM	#27
Lasgalen Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tempe, AZ Posts: 101	Why does Elwing stop being a princess because Doriath fell? These titles are inherited and don't depend on land. __________________ When you're riding in a time machine way far into the future, don't stick your elbow out the window, or it'll turn into a fossil.

10-09-2003, 09:02 AM	#29
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	A king rules over a kingdom, without a kingdom there isn't really a king. As for Aranel. Aran- means King, but only King of a specified region. The same goes for the Ar- stem.