Denethor in The Silmarillion - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Esgallhugwen · 06-29-2003, 06:21 PM

Something caught my eye as I was re-reading the Silmarillion. The name of Denethor...It is in the 3rd chapter pg52 in my edition at the bottom of the 3rd last paragraph and I quote "In after years Denethor, son of Lenwe, turned again west at last, and led a part of that people over the mountains into Beleriand ere the rising of the moon."
He is an elf not the Steward of Gondor. Maybe Christopher Tolkien could have perhaps made an error when he was editing his father's work (which I highly doubt) or is there just a third Denethor that is an elf in the first age? I have a Tolkien Companion but it was published a year before The Silmarillion, it has Denethor one and two who were both Stewards of Gondor, and it mentions in the "S" section that the Silmarillion has not yet been published. Please anybody I need your expert opinion and please help me find out the truth to this matter. you can e-mail me or reply here, but i won't be able to answer for two weeks as I will be away on vacation. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] escallhugwen@hotmail.com

Esgallhugwen · 06-29-2003, 06:30 PM

whoops i accident;y put this in movies oh well i'm sure you people out there will still answer me! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

peonydeepdelver · 06-29-2003, 07:27 PM

I don't think it's an error, because there's also a Haldir and a Boromir in The Silmarillion that aren't the same people as the ones in LOTR.

Meela · 06-29-2003, 08:00 PM

Denethor is indeed a third of that name. Denethor of Ossiriand was an elf.

Finwe · 06-30-2003, 09:48 AM

Tolkien reused names a lot, especially the names of Gondorian nobles, who would have named their children after historical personages of the First Age. I'm sure that both the names Denethor and Boromir were used frequently. Tolkien did the same thing with Legolas. There is a Legolas of Gondolin, who helped the survivors escape, and the Legolas that we all know, Legolas of Mirkwood.

Estelyn Telcontar · 06-30-2003, 02:41 PM

Since this is a book question, I'm moving the thread to the Novices and Newcomers forum. You may continue to read and post there.

al'Thingolfin · 07-05-2003, 12:13 PM

Finwe said:
There is a Legolas of Gondolin, who helped the survivors escape, and the Legolas that we all know, Legolas of Mirkwood.

I might be wrong, but isn't Legolas of Gondolin just the earlier form of Legolas from Mirkwood?
I don't think he's another character.

***Sharkû*** · 07-05-2003, 03:29 PM

Nah, we can be certain that they were very distinct characters. Legolas of Gondolin, however, might be considered to have been abandoned as a name/idea by the time of LotR or later; we cannot really say since Tolkien never dealt with the Fall of Gondolin as thoroughfully as with the very early version which has Legolas in it. We do know that Elven names are not unique, however, so they may well have both existed.

As for the reusing of names such as Denethor or Boromir, I would like to point out that is not primarily because the author liked the names, but in order to represent the very credible circumstance that Men named themselves after heroes of old legends (including mortals, of course).

Esgallhugwen · 07-11-2003, 06:25 PM

Thank you all for your input, i should have thought of them re-naming their children after famous people because of course we do it as well. No one really has a very distinct name for example many people of the world are named sean, jennifer, etc. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Legolas · 07-12-2003, 01:30 AM

Quote:

but in order to represent the very credible circumstance that Men named themselves after heroes of old legends (including mortals, of course).

Indeed - you will find a number of names (mostly of the First and Second Ages) repeated by the (mostly) men of later years, especially with kings (/stewards) of Numenor/Gondor. Here's a couple of lists off the top of my head...

More famous characters whose names were repeated: Beren, Beleg, Dior, Ecthelion, Barahir, Earendil, Finduilas, Turgon, Turambar, Turin, Hurin, Hador, Voronwe, Nimloth

More famous characters whose names are repeats of earlier characters: Aragorn, Beregond, Boromir, Faramir, Denethor, Haldir, Gildor

Dwarves and hobbits reused names even more often. There is also a large number of lesser-known kings of men whose names repeat.

[ July 18, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

06-29-2003, 06:21 PM	#1
Esgallhugwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Where the Moon cries against the snow Posts: 526	Denethor in The Silmarillion Something caught my eye as I was re-reading the Silmarillion. The name of Denethor...It is in the 3rd chapter pg52 in my edition at the bottom of the 3rd last paragraph and I quote "In after years Denethor, son of Lenwe, turned again west at last, and led a part of that people over the mountains into Beleriand ere the rising of the moon." He is an elf not the Steward of Gondor. Maybe Christopher Tolkien could have perhaps made an error when he was editing his father's work (which I highly doubt) or is there just a third Denethor that is an elf in the first age? I have a Tolkien Companion but it was published a year before The Silmarillion, it has Denethor one and two who were both Stewards of Gondor, and it mentions in the "S" section that the Silmarillion has not yet been published. Please anybody I need your expert opinion and please help me find out the truth to this matter. you can e-mail me or reply here, but i won't be able to answer for two weeks as I will be away on vacation. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img] escallhugwen@hotmail.com __________________ "...for the sin of the idolater is not that he worships stone, but that he worships one stone over others. -8:9:4 The Witness of Fane"

06-29-2003, 06:30 PM	#2
Esgallhugwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Where the Moon cries against the snow Posts: 526	whoops i accident;y put this in movies oh well i'm sure you people out there will still answer me! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "...for the sin of the idolater is not that he worships stone, but that he worships one stone over others. -8:9:4 The Witness of Fane"

06-29-2003, 07:27 PM	#3
peonydeepdelver Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Alas, I hail from Massachusetts Posts: 256	I don't think it's an error, because there's also a Haldir and a Boromir in The Silmarillion that aren't the same people as the ones in LOTR. __________________ "Nazgul, Nazgul! You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk! Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape! You ought to know that they're the apple of the Great Eye." ~Grishnakh

06-29-2003, 08:00 PM	#4
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	Denethor is indeed a third of that name. Denethor of Ossiriand was an elf. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

06-30-2003, 09:48 AM	#5
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Tolkien reused names a lot, especially the names of Gondorian nobles, who would have named their children after historical personages of the First Age. I'm sure that both the names Denethor and Boromir were used frequently. Tolkien did the same thing with Legolas. There is a Legolas of Gondolin, who helped the survivors escape, and the Legolas that we all know, Legolas of Mirkwood. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

06-30-2003, 02:41 PM	#6
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Since this is a book question, I'm moving the thread to the Novices and Newcomers forum. You may continue to read and post there. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-05-2003, 12:13 PM	#7
al'Thingolfin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 13	Finwe said: There is a Legolas of Gondolin, who helped the survivors escape, and the Legolas that we all know, Legolas of Mirkwood. I might be wrong, but isn't Legolas of Gondolin just the earlier form of Legolas from Mirkwood? I don't think he's another character. __________________ -Thingolfin

07-05-2003, 03:29 PM	#8
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	Nah, we can be certain that they were very distinct characters. Legolas of Gondolin, however, might be considered to have been abandoned as a name/idea by the time of LotR or later; we cannot really say since Tolkien never dealt with the Fall of Gondolin as thoroughfully as with the very early version which has Legolas in it. We do know that Elven names are not unique, however, so they may well have both existed. As for the reusing of names such as Denethor or Boromir, I would like to point out that is not primarily because the author liked the names, but in order to represent the very credible circumstance that Men named themselves after heroes of old legends (including mortals, of course).

07-11-2003, 06:25 PM	#9
Esgallhugwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Where the Moon cries against the snow Posts: 526	Thank you all for your input, i should have thought of them re-naming their children after famous people because of course we do it as well. No one really has a very distinct name for example many people of the world are named sean, jennifer, etc. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "...for the sin of the idolater is not that he worships stone, but that he worships one stone over others. -8:9:4 The Witness of Fane"