Verses - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Adamathamariel · 04-06-2003, 10:06 AM

I'm not sure if this would go here, or in the books forum. The impression I get from that forum is that it is very serious, and this thread is not. Feel free to move it

I've noticed that Tolkien was not only a writer, but a poet. Some of my favorite poems are
All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither
Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be the blade that was broken
The crownless again shall be king.

When I read this, I began wondering if Tolkien had written the Fellowship of the Ring during a war or such. Would anyone know? In Tolkiens poems, I notice that there is a hidden meaning behind each one of them. Can anyone else find them?

--------------------------------------
Though here at journey's end I lie
In darkness buried deep
Beyond all towers strong and high
Beyond all mountains steep
Above all shadows rides the Sun
And stars forever dwell:
I will not say the day is done
Nor bid the Stars farewell

Iarwain · 04-06-2003, 04:05 PM

It's nice to know that at least some are untainted by the idea of war Allegory in Lotr. He did, in fact, write it during and after WWII. He also served in WWI. It's quite amazing that you could deduce such merely from a poem.

Iarwian

Adamathamariel · 04-06-2003, 07:24 PM

All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost
The old that is strong does not wither
Deep roots are not reached by the frost
From the ashes a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring
Renewed shall be the blade that was broken
The crownless again shall be king.

In this poem, I thought of Winston Churchhill. "The crownless again shall be king."
With "All that is gold does not glitter," I thought about England," a mighty natiion that at the time was looseing it's reputation"
With "Deep roots are not reached by the frost," I though about how englands long history(it's roots) and it's patriotism held strong through the war.
"From ashes a fire shall be woken," I thought of perhaps pearl harbor.

----------------------------------
Faithful servant yet masters bane,
Light fool foal, swit snowmane

Iarwain · 04-06-2003, 08:11 PM

Wonderful connexions, very creative. However I'm about to do something oh, but so cruel. I hate to disappoint you, and even more to ruin the wonderful thoughts the creation of an allegorical Middle-Earth can produce, but there is no allegory. Tolkien's writing was about nothing more than itself. He was saying nothing more than that there was a war in the mythological world of arda, and giving a detail description of the heroism that took place therein. It's heartbreaking, i know, but true. Tolkien insisted on it himself, just read the forward of LotR.

Iarwain

Nuranar · 04-07-2003, 02:37 PM

Adamathamariel, are you indeed referring to hidden meanings Tolkien deliberately placed in his poems?

I know the battle of the allegory [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] has been thoroughly thrashed out elsewhere. Even if that's the line along which you are thinking, I still believe there is something beyond mere allegory in those lines.

There are overarching themes, archetypes, great truths if you will, that permeate the world. When one expresses ideas such as faith and hope, they will inevitably apply to many situations. Tolkien probably wasn't thinking of World War II when he wrote those verses. However, the concepts and the promise he wrote of can be significant of a number of circumstances.

I would not take Strider's Riddle as an allegory for any war. However, I congratulate you for seeing the themes it expresses and how they are true outside of the framework of Middle-earth.

Scott · 04-10-2003, 08:15 PM

Adamathamariel,
Well, the way that I have always seen any literature is that the writer was trying to get across some sort of message(s) to their audience. Although The Lord of the Rings is not allegorical, the same message permeates through the work. The way I understand it is that Tolkien did not want Middle Earth and the War of the Ring to be allegorical because allegories set up limits. When something is bluntly intended to fit a certain framework, many times we as nearsighted people only allow ourselves to see it in that fashion. Tolkien wanted to make statements that transcended time. In this way he succeeded. The over and under tones presented can not only shed light upon WWII, but also other events (such as the current War on Terrorism) as well. I think that is why the work is so timeless.

04-06-2003, 10:06 AM	#1
Adamathamariel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	Verses I'm not sure if this would go here, or in the books forum. The impression I get from that forum is that it is very serious, and this thread is not. Feel free to move it I've noticed that Tolkien was not only a writer, but a poet. Some of my favorite poems are All that is gold does not glitter Not all those who wander are lost The old that is strong does not wither Deep roots are not reached by the frost From the ashes a fire shall be woken A light from the shadows shall spring Renewed shall be the blade that was broken The crownless again shall be king. When I read this, I began wondering if Tolkien had written the Fellowship of the Ring during a war or such. Would anyone know? In Tolkiens poems, I notice that there is a hidden meaning behind each one of them. Can anyone else find them? -------------------------------------- Though here at journey's end I lie In darkness buried deep Beyond all towers strong and high Beyond all mountains steep Above all shadows rides the Sun And stars forever dwell: I will not say the day is done Nor bid the Stars farewell

04-06-2003, 04:05 PM	#2
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	It's nice to know that at least some are untainted by the idea of war Allegory in Lotr. He did, in fact, write it during and after WWII. He also served in WWI. It's quite amazing that you could deduce such merely from a poem. Iarwian __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

04-06-2003, 08:11 PM	#4
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Wonderful connexions, very creative. However I'm about to do something oh, but so cruel. I hate to disappoint you, and even more to ruin the wonderful thoughts the creation of an allegorical Middle-Earth can produce, but there is no allegory. Tolkien's writing was about nothing more than itself. He was saying nothing more than that there was a war in the mythological world of arda, and giving a detail description of the heroism that took place therein. It's heartbreaking, i know, but true. Tolkien insisted on it himself, just read the forward of LotR. Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

04-07-2003, 02:37 PM	#5
Nuranar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: STILL a drought Posts: 529	Adamathamariel, are you indeed referring to hidden meanings Tolkien deliberately placed in his poems? I know the battle of the allegory [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] has been thoroughly thrashed out elsewhere. Even if that's the line along which you are thinking, I still believe there is something beyond mere allegory in those lines. There are overarching themes, archetypes, great truths if you will, that permeate the world. When one expresses ideas such as faith and hope, they will inevitably apply to many situations. Tolkien probably wasn't thinking of World War II when he wrote those verses. However, the concepts and the promise he wrote of can be significant of a number of circumstances. I would not take Strider's Riddle as an allegory for any war. However, I congratulate you for seeing the themes it expresses and how they are true outside of the framework of Middle-earth. __________________ I admit it is better fun to punt than be punted, and that a desire to have all the fun is nine-tenths of the law of chivalry. Lord Peter Wimsey

04-10-2003, 08:15 PM	#6
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	Adamathamariel, Well, the way that I have always seen any literature is that the writer was trying to get across some sort of message(s) to their audience. Although The Lord of the Rings is not allegorical, the same message permeates through the work. The way I understand it is that Tolkien did not want Middle Earth and the War of the Ring to be allegorical because allegories set up limits. When something is bluntly intended to fit a certain framework, many times we as nearsighted people only allow ourselves to see it in that fashion. Tolkien wanted to make statements that transcended time. In this way he succeeded. The over and under tones presented can not only shed light upon WWII, but also other events (such as the current War on Terrorism) as well. I think that is why the work is so timeless. __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

04-06-2003, 07:24 PM	#3
Adamathamariel Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 11	All that is gold does not glitter Not all those who wander are lost The old that is strong does not wither Deep roots are not reached by the frost From the ashes a fire shall be woken A light from the shadows shall spring Renewed shall be the blade that was broken The crownless again shall be king. In this poem, I thought of Winston Churchhill. "The crownless again shall be king." With "All that is gold does not glitter," I thought about England," a mighty natiion that at the time was looseing it's reputation" With "Deep roots are not reached by the frost," I though about how englands long history(it's roots) and it's patriotism held strong through the war. "From ashes a fire shall be woken," I thought of perhaps pearl harbor. ---------------------------------- Faithful servant yet masters bane, Light fool foal, swit snowmane