Edain/Eldar marriages

I was rereading Appendix A Section I The Numenorean Kings in The Return of the King and I came to the part where it explains the three unions of the Edain and the Eldar: Luthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; and Arwen and Aragorn. When I read this I was curious why it would say only three. Unless I am mistaken there are four, they left out Nimloth and Dior. Nimloth was clearly an elf with Celeborn as her uncle, unless her mother was a human, (which is never even implied,) and she is clearly said to be an Elf-maiden of Doriath. And Dior is a half-elf being the son of Beren and Luthien.

If you can spread some more light on this subject for me I would be greatful.

I also have one question on the marriage of Idril and Tuor. Since Tuor and Idril sailed off into the sunset, and their deaths were never recorded, did Idril sacrifice her immortality for Tuor? I think she would have to since Luthien and Arwen both did also, but I don't remember actually ever reading it through-out all the books.

Thanks again if you can help me on any of these or even point me in the right direction.

[Maikadilwen]

Well, I believe the reason they're not mentioned, is that, as you said yourself, Dior is a half-elf, a Peredhil and therefore not of the Edain.
Elrond was a Peredhil as well. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ February 24, 2003: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[lord of dor-lomin]

If I remember correctly, Tuor arrived in Valinor and was counted as an elf, and his fate was sundered from the fate of men.

[Maikadilwen]

Something important to remember is, that Luthien gave up her immortality in order to bring Beren back to life.

Arwen was able to choose, because she was of the Peredhil. It is clearly stated that she had to follow Elrond into the west to remain immortal, but she chose to stay in Middle Earth and so she lost her immortality.

Idril was 100% Elf and had no choice!

[ February 24, 2003: Message edited by: Maikadilwen ]

[Maerbenn]

I believe Dior was 100% Mortal. Why? Because he was the product of two mortals (he was born after Lúthien had become mortal).

Dior was called half-elf once in old texts. This definition was removed. The half-elf choice was given later when the Valar had already received the Authority from Ilúvatar to alter the Nature of those involved.

Dior wedded Nimloth (or Lindis depending on text); his children were half-elven. Eärendil was half-elven, and with his marriage to Elwing, the half-elf/half-man ratio was maintained in Elros and Elrond.

[ February 24, 2003: Message edited by: Maerbenn ]

[Dain]

The mention of Elrond and Arwen as peredhil stirred this thought out of my memory--you realise that Aragorn is a descendent of Elrond's brother, right? That makes Arwen a distant cousin...very very distant... How strange to almost be one of your husbands ancestors...

[elven maiden Earwen]

Amaziling enough is I relized that too, and its weird, but if you think about it most elves and men are related.*SPOOKY*

Thanks to everyone for clearing that up for me... it really helped.


I'm very happy that I have people like Maikadilwen to show me what is right in front of my face... I'm afraid to think of what would happen to me if I didn't. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Thanks again

[Diamond18]

I believe Dior was 100% Man.

In the Silmarillion it says that Dior was one third Man, one third Elf, and one third Maia.

Then Dior arose, and about his neck he clasped the Nauglamír; and now he appeared as the fairest of all the children in the world, of threefold race: of the Edain, and of the Eldar, and of the Maiar of the Blessed Realm.

Bold mine. And this also answers the question, "Who was the best looking being in Middle-earth?" [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[lord of dor-lomin]

Actually, Diamond, if you want to be technical, he was half man, a quarter elf, and a quarter maia. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And you're not saying he was better looking than Luthien, are you? If you are, remember it says "and now he appeared as the fairest". It was only then, after Luthien had died (him recieving the Nauglamir was a token of her death) that he was the fairest. (if you weren't implying that he was better than Luthien, then what I said is only so others aren't confused)

I don't know if Dior would've had the life of an elf or a mortal (I would guess mortal), but there's probably no way of knowing since he died in battle before he had aged much.

[Maerbenn]

Diamond18, I knew that was coming. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

OK, your quote is from the infamous Ruin of Doriath chapter, which was written by Christopher Tolkien. That means you have to be extra careful. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

I believe the passage you are quoting was derived from this passage in the old Quenta Noldorinwa (of c. 1930), published in HoMe IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth:

Thereafter was Dior Thingol's heir, child of Beren and Luthien, king in the woods, most fair of all the children of the world, for his race was threefold: of the fairest and goodliest of Men, and of the Elves, and of the spirits divine of Valinor; yet it shielded him not from the fate of the oath of the sons of Feanor.

Then we have this paragraph in the Quenta Silmarillion (of c. 1937), published in HoMe V: The Lost Road and Other Writings:

Then Manwë gave judgement and he said: 'To Eärendel I remit the ban, and the peril that he took upon himself out of love for the Two Kindreds shall not fall on him; neither shall it fall upon Elwing who entered into peril for love of Eärendel: save only in this: they shall not ever walk again among Elves or Men in the Outer Lands. Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.'

Christopher's commentary says this about the paragraph:

It is to be observed that according to the judgement of Manwë Dior Thingol's Heir, son of Beren, was mortal irrespective of the choice of his mother.

Also notice that Christopher states Dior appeared as of threefold race, not that he was. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

But after all I think it's really a matter of canon; whether you regard the published Silmarillion edited by Christopher Tolkien or J.R.R. Tolkien's own unedited texts as canon.

[ February 24, 2003: Message edited by: Maerbenn ]

[ February 24, 2003: Message edited by: Maerbenn ]

[Adanadhel]

Don't forget the legend that the royal family of Dol Amroth also had elvish blood (by Legolas and UT). Imrazor or Galador & Mithrellas or even Nimrodel herself?

[the phantom]

While it's true that many people forget the lineage of the rulers of Dol Amroth, keep in mind that it was not an Edain/Eldar marriage, since those elves were not Eldar.

[Diamond18]

Hmmm, I was thinking more along the lines of genetics, rather than mortality. Even after Luthien "became mortal" I would think the DNA she passes down to her children (in this case, one son only) would still contain Elven and Maiar elements.

So I didn't see anyhthing in the quotes Maerbenn provided to dispute that. It just says that he was 100% Mortal, but I wouldn't say that's the same thing as being 100% Man. Though I probably made myself terribly unclear on that point before. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

And if I were to place bets I'd say that Luthien was indeed prettier than Dior. I was joking with that remark about his pulchritudinous, because those "Who is the greatest...?" type discussions are popular. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Tar Elenion]

Maerbenn wrote:
Dior was called half-elf once in old texts. This definition was removed.

In later texts as well:
"Eärendil was thus the second of the Pereldar (Half-elven), the elder being Dior, son of Beren and Lúthien Tinúviel daughter of King Elu Thingol."
"By the marriage of Earendil to Elwing daughter of Dior son of Beren the lines of the Pereldar (Peredhil) were united."
These are from The Shibboleth of Feanor, PoME.
"Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues; his father's, and his mother's, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: 'I am the first of the Pereðil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the Eluchíl.'"
This is from the Problem of Ros, PoME
"Dior Halfelven weds Lindis of Ossiriand."
This is from the Wanderings of Hurin, WotJ


Dior was 'half-Elven' and inherited Maiarin 'blood' from Luthien which passed on to his descendants.

[ February 25, 2003: Message edited by: Tar Elenion ]

[lindil]

As to whether Mithrellas was an Elda or not is unknown, she was of the silvan race, which is generally regarded as mixed Avari [non-Eldar] and Nandorin[Eldar, barely].

One can of course say that "JRRT said only 3 Union of Eldar and Edain" but I think he was speaking in terms of the primary Legendarium in which the Dol Amroth story is more or less an interesting footnote.

[Maerbenn]

Thanks Tar Elenion, I had completely forgot about those texts. But do you agree that Dior never had the choice, that he was a mortal half-elf from the start?

[Lady Alasse]

Has anyone notice that only elvish maidens marry human men never the other way around. I wonder why. sorry if this is off subject. I've been wondering about this for a while.

[Maerbenn]

Lady Alasse, read Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth in HoMe X: Morgoth's Ring. Andreth had an affair with Aikanáro (Aegnor). They were never married though.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Affair? Aegnor was never married. They never became lovers, to my knowledge. Aegnor pulled away, so to speak, as he didn't want to marry her in a time of war.

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

It may have already been mentioned, but what of the lines of ancestors of the Prince, Imrahil of Dol Amroth? For indeed, Legolas saw that not all the people of Amroth went into the West, as had been rumoured some must have stayed and after long years bred that line of men, who indeed had elvish blood in them, and were noble and true.

[Tar Elenion]

Maerbenn wrote:
Thanks Tar Elenion, I had completely forgot about those texts. But do you agree that Dior never had the choice, that he was a mortal half-elf from the start?

Yes, in my opinion Dior was 'mortal'.

[The Saucepan Man]

I also have one question on the marriage of Idril and Tuor. Since Tuor and Idril sailed off into the sunset, and their deaths were never recorded, did Idril sacrifice her immortality for Tuor? I think she would have to since Luthien and Arwen both did also, but I don't remember actually ever reading it through-out all the books.

If I remember correctly, Tuor arrived in Valinor and was counted as an elf, and his fate was sundered from the fate of men.

OK. This confuses me. The Silmarillion does indeed say that "Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race ... and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men". But it also says, of Earendil, that he:

... first of living Men, landed on the immortal shoes ...

Does this mean that Tuor "became" one of the Eldar before he landed in Valinor? How could this happen? Presumably, only Iluvatar could change his fate in this way, but why would He do this during the course of Tuor's voyage, before he even landed? Is there anything in JRRT's other writings that sheds any light on this?

[Salix]

I have no light to shed on the recent post, but I do have a question. If Dior's marrige wasn't regarded as a union between Edain/Eldar, why is Arwen/Aragorn's? They are both descended of Dior, and strictly speaking, Arwen still is pretty peredhil-like. She is just over 3 quarters Elf, but wouldn't she still be ranked as a peredhil? Or is it because Elrond chose to be counted as an Eldar, and Elros chose to be counted as an Edain? Or am I just thinking too much?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Wasn't it just 'sung in later days' that Tuor became immortal and numbered among the Noldor? Couldn't it be a mannish myth, like the creation of the sun and the moon, since the Sil. was said ot be a 'mannish' legend.

I've always been suspicous of his transformation from man to Eldar.

[Tar Elenion]

Tuor's 'immortality' is confirmed by Letter 153.
In that Letter JRRT notes the 'supposition':
"Túor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality'...".
He then later confirms it by stating:
"Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Túor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."
Note the statement that Tuor's case was the result of an act of Eru.

[The Saucepan Man]

Thanks Tar Elenion. Actually, after posting my query, I did a search (I know, should have done it before [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ) and have seen your informative contributions (and those of others) on the other threads discussing the fate of Tuor and Idril.

Inderjit, you are right that Tuor reaching the Undying Lands is expressed in terms of legend, so he may, in fact, have perished at sea. But that seems to me to be a very unfitting end for one who achieved so much for the Eldar. It would also seem strange for one who was favoured by Ulmo to have been lost at sea.

But, if he did reach Valinor (or at least Tol Eressea), and assuming that he did not become an Elf, but was simply granted (by Eru) the gift of immortality (and thus remained a Man), does it not follow that the statement that Earendil was the first among living Men to land on the immortal shores is incorrect?

Still confused. [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

[Legolas]

I came to the part where it explains the three unions of the Edain and the Eldar: Luthien and Beren; Idril and Tuor; and Arwen and Aragorn. When I read this I was curious why it would say only three. Unless I am mistaken there are four, they left out Nimloth and Dior. Nimloth was clearly an elf with Celeborn as her uncle, unless her mother was a human, (which is never even implied,) and she is clearly said to be an Elf-maiden of Doriath. And Dior is a half-elf being the son of Beren and Luthien.
If you can spread some more light on this subject for me I would be grateful.

Dior was a half-elf and Nimloth was an elf. What's your confusion? Those listed are the unification of a man and one of elven blood.

Tuor was a man, Idril was an elf.
Beren was a man, Luthien was an elf.
Aragorn was a man, Arwen was a half-elf.

Those are listed because one half of the relationship was a man. Dior was a half elf, and though he had mortal blood, was not wholly mortal.

(Aragorn had a very small bit of Elven blood, but so small an amount was totally insignificant as to his fundamental kind.)

I also have one question on the marriage of Idril and Tuor. Since Tuor and Idril sailed off into the sunset, and their deaths were never recorded, did Idril sacrifice her immortality for Tuor? I think she would have to since Luthien and Arwen both did also, but I don't remember actually ever reading it through-out all the books.

No elf can just give up their immortality freely - only Eru can give that choice. Tuor was granted immortality by Eru.

[Tar Elenion]

Tuor was a man, Idril was an elf.
Beren was a man, Luthien was an elf.
Aragorn was a man, Arwen was a half-elf.

Those are listed because one half of the relationship was a man. Dior was a half elf, and though he had mortal blood, was not wholly mortal.

Elros was a Half-elf, his wife was a Man.
Notice the similarity between Arwen and Aragorn.

[The Saucepan Man]

Elros was a Half-elf, his wife was a Man.

Elros married a man!!? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]