The Greatest of the Eldar

[obloquy]

This thread pops up every couple of minutes on Tolkien boards, and usually ends up several hundred thousand posts long, each poster declaring one elf (out of a pretty consistent pool of about six or seven elves) to be the most groovy.

Usually one or two posters have actually read some Tolkien, and will cite Unfinished Tales:

Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years.

This portion of the UT material happens to have come from another essay, published in HoMe XII - The Peoples of Middle-earth, called The Shibboleth of Feanor. In that essay, the following is also stated:

These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends for ever.

In an Author's Note connected to this sentence, Tolkien states:

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

So there you have it. The greatest of all the Eldar was Luthien Tinuviel. Now this question never has to be asked again!

[Daniel Telcontar]

That depends in what matter. There are certainly in some matters where others could be considered greater. And why not let people have their personal favorites, neither Feänor, Luthien or Galadriel are the elves I consider the greatest.

[burrahobbit]

Well, I happen to think that Thranduil's butler is the greatest elf of all time. I am wrong. Tolkien, though, he probably knew what he was talking about. Also, favorite is not the same as greatest.

[obloquy]

Tolkien doesn't say Luthien is the greatest in some respects, he says she is the greatest of the Eldar. No conditions. It is a concrete answer to a question that many people ask, taken directly from Tolkien's writings.

People are certainly allowed to have their favorites. That wasn't the question I was addressing.

[Daniel Telcontar]

But how do you define greatest? Galadriel was wise, Feanor a craftsman and Luthien beautiful. Does that mean that they were better elves than others? Tolkien gave us his opinion of who he thought was the greatest, but can you just take these lines and make them matter for all the elves? What about Ingwë, the High King of every elf? Shouldn't he be considered the greatest Eldar?

[obloquy]

No, because Tolkien says Luthien was the greatest.

[Daniel Telcontar]

I don't believe you can say that an elf is the greatest because of one quote. Luthien got a silmaril from Morgoth, and that was it. Although it was a great deed, what about elves like Fingolfin, who crossed Helcaraxe and had a duel against Morgoth? Or Glorfindel, who killed a balrog and whom even the nazgûl feared? I think it is wrong to rely so much on a single quote, and that you can't decide who is the greatest elf, because it cannot be measured.

[obloquy]

Yes, it actually can be measured. Tolkien measured it, and Luthien was the greatest. It's quite unambiguous, and it doesn't leave any room for your argument.

[Daniel Telcontar]

If he measured it, by what standards? Do you believe Luthien to be the most beautiful being ever to exist, like many others? Because she is not. Tolkien says that Dior was seen as the most beautiful of all the world's children. But that is only one quote. Does it count? I don't think Tolkien measured the different elves, because how could it be done? I think Tolkien meant that she should be counted among those who had done a great deed, like many others.

[obloquy]

Tolkien doesn't say she's the greatest because she's the most beautiful, or because of her deeds. He gives no reason. He simply says she is the greatest of all the Eldar. I'll quote it one more time for you:

Who together with the greatest of all the Eldar, Lúthien Tinúviel, daughter of Elu Thingol, are the chief matter of the legends and histories of the Elves.

I hope you realize that you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with Tolkien himself.

[burrahobbit]

I've drawn a graph to illustrate exactly why Luthien is the greatest, instead of Feanor or Galadriel or whoever.



Black = wisdom, green = making stuff ability, pink = hottness

As you can see in the above, when compared to the average elf both Galadriel and Feanor are generally much above average, but when compared with Luthien's hottness index they just don't compare. I mean, seriously, just look at it. Her hottness index is more than what you would get if you added up Feanor's or Galadriel's, plus her wisdom and ability to make stuff indices are both nothing to scoff at. And look at how wide the thing is, man.

I hope that this clears up any confusion.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

Maybe. But J.R.R. Tolkien has not written the Silmarillion, he has only made some notes and quick references. His son has put the book together. I cannot accept the fact that Luthien is the greatest of the Eldar, without a valid argument, and certainly not when we can't be sure that J.R.R. Tolkien himself meant so. There are other disagrements, e.g. the one about the number of balrogs. Tolkien writes one place legions of Balrogs, thousands of them, and other places that there are only seven.
Without clearer guidance, definition questions such as this must be decided by the reader himself, since he has so little evidence to support the different theories.

[obloquy]

Yeah, sometimes Tolkien conflicts with himself, but he doesn't in this case. Nowhere else is there a conclusive statement as to which elf was greater than all others. You don't think he meant what he wrote? I didn't quote Christopher Tolkien, I quoted J.R.R. Tolkien.

Besides, just look at the graph.

[Daniel Telcontar]

I must admit, the graph is difficult to fight against. But how do you know that it was J.R.R. Tolken how wrote that part, and not his son?

[obloquy]

Because it's not in the Silmarillion. It's in an essay in volume XII of The History of Middle-earth. There is no question as to who wrote the essay.

[Daniel Telcontar]

That is true, I didn't know. But still, it only appears to be a note, which he wrote hastily, without giving much consideration or writing heavy arguments why she is the greatest. To me, there does not seem to be a standard with which you can measure the elves. Feanor: Three silmarils, giving 3000 points. Galadriel: nine gifts to the fellowship, 450 points. Gil-galad, dying in war, -200 points. Get the idea?

[obloquy]

It doesn't say he wrote it hastily. It's not just a note jotted in the margins like the AAm Balrog numbers thing. You're right, there is no measuring stick we can lean elves up against to determine their greatness (besides burrahobbit's graph, which I hope is merely the first of a series). But we can trust Tolkien when he says, unequivocally and without contradiction, that Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Our discussion has come to a dead end, where it is up to each of us, what we wishes to believe. I have my elves as the greatest ones, you have yours. But thanks for the discussion, I enjoyed it, and you had some good arguments. Hopefully we will meet in another. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[*Varda*]

Tolkien said Luthien was the greatest. Since Tolkien actually wrote the books, i would give his opinion more importance.

Greatest and Favourite are not the same thing. Favourite is a matter of personal opinion.

[Daniel Telcontar]

You are right, but I still believe it is up the every reader to decide who he/she believes is the greatest of the elves, be that in spirit, by deeds or other standards.

[burrahobbit]

It is up to every reader to decide whether or not Frodo dies in the first chapter.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Do I feel a bit of hostility from you, Burrahobbit?

[burrahobbit]

No. If your logic is sound it will remain sound when taken to an extreme. I took your logic to an extreme. It is not sound.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Where did you pick up that philosophy?

[burrahobbit]

If I am wrong, tell me how.

[Daniel Telcontar]

It is not logic, that everyone should make up their own opinion, it is a statement. So you are wrong, when taking it to the extreme, since it is not a logic.

[burrahobbit]

Your logic, such as it is, is that it is up to the reader to decide the exact content of a given book. In this particular case you are applying it to the question of the greatest elf. You have come up with your own conclusions, which is generally fine, but in this case it goes against the explicitly stated opinion of the creator. I took your logic and used it to determine that it is up to me to determine if Frodo died in the first chapter. This, of course, is a ridiculous proposition. It is perfectly obvious that he lived throughout the entirety of the book, just as it is now perfectly obvious that Luthien was the greatest Elda.

[Daniel Telcontar]

No, Logic is to make a conclusion of something obvious. But I make a statement, which is when someone says what they think/believe. I believe that everyone should decide for themselves, which not everyone agrees with. You cannot use the rules for logic on this, since I have not made a logic conclusion.
I think it is logic that Luthien is the greatest elf. But when it also states, that Galadriel and Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar, then it is not logic. It is an opinion. Like I have my opinion.

[Maédhros]

I personally don't think that Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar. Her parents were an elf and a maia, in that she had an unfair advantage over other elves. Her deeds were great, but she didn't create anything. I can say that in somethings she was the best, but in others not.

[Daniel Telcontar]

That is what I believe as well. She did a great deed, when she recovered one of the Silmarils, but that was it. And in other things she were surpassed. Glad that someone agrees with me. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[burrahobbit]

But when it also states, that Galadriel and Feanor was the greatest of the Eldar

Ah, but it doesn't say that, it says that they were the greatest of the Noldor. Luthien is not Noldorin, but Telerin. The Eldar, if you will remember, include the members of the Vanyar, the Noldor, and the Teleri. Of those three groups, Luthien was the greatest.

[burrahobbit]

I personally don't think that Luthien was the greatest of the Eldar.

I wonder who has the opinion with more weight. Is it JRR Tolkien or is it Maédhros or is it Daniel Telcontar. Hmm, I shall be awake all night trying to decide.

[Daniel Telcontar]

Look in Obloquy's post. It says

These two kinsfolk [Galadriel and Feanor], the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor,

Unless Obloquy is lying, Tolkien can't make up his mind.

Also, I am not asking you to use my opinion as a guide. I am asking you, if you are able to, to make your own opinion. If you have the same as one of Tolkien's, then that is fine. But don't discriminate the rest of us for having ours.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: Daniel Telcontar ]

[burrahobbit]

Tolkien does not say that Feanor and Galadriel were each the total best Noldo ever. It might be best to paraphrase it to something such as "In a list of the top 10 Noldor, Galadriel and Feanor would be 1 and 2, though perhaps not in that order." Not to mention the fact the Luthien never went to Valinor.

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

[obloquy]

I really fail to see where the difficulty is. Luthien is explicitly, unambiguously, unequivocally, and unconditionally stated to be 'greatest of all Eldar.' How is that difficult to understand?

[ June 28, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

[The Barrow-Wight]

From dictionary.com

great Pronunciation Key (grt)
adj. great·er, great·est
Very large in size.

So she was the largest of the Eldar? I always imagined her as petite. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Maédhros]

I wonder who has the opinion with more weight. Is it JRR Tolkien or is it Maédhros or is it Daniel Telcontar. Hmm, I shall be awake all night trying to decide.

Well, she was a great eldar, but certainly not the greatest craftmen of the elves. Is she?

I really fail to see where the difficulty is. Luthien is explicitly, unambiguously, unequivocally, and unconditionally stated to be 'greatest of all Eldar.' How is that difficult to understand?

She's the greatest in what?

[obloquy]

She wasn't the greatest in something. She was the greatest, period.

[The Barrow-Wight]

And further more.. blah, blah, blah....

This conversation is going in great circles. The greatest circles I've seen recently. Ain't that great?

Let's stop the bickering and define greatness so we can see what Tolkien meant by the Luthien statement quoted by obloquy.

[obloquy]

I expect Tolkien probably meant "greatest" in the same sense that Melkor was greatest. Having the most potent spirit.