The Fate of the Entwives

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Has anyone ever wondered what happened to the Entwives? Of course they have, we all have. There were rumors of beings, as tall as trees marching on the outskirts of the Shire, that we read of as early as chapter one. But were these Entwives? Or were they Giants, Trolls, or something else? That, remains unknown. What does not remain unknown, is what Tolkien himself mused could have indeed happened to the Entwives.

When they left the Ents, the Entwives moved to the eastern side of Anduin, in the vicinity of what would later become Dagorlad. There love was more of agriculture and of order, not the mere caretaking of trees, so they left the Ents. Tolkien thought that maybe since Sauron had instituted a 'scorched-earth-policy' on that region, since it was right near his front door, so to speak, that his orcs had set fire to and torn down everything there, and destroyed the Entwives. Any which remained would have been taken and mutilated. Or, possibly, used as slaves like so many other poor souls. Of course, not all of Mordor was harsh desert and horrid, acrid wastes. The southeast, near the inland sea was more fertile to say the least. And Sauron did have entire armies to feed. Tolkien wrote in his letters that it was possible the surviving Entwives were used as slaves in those fields, doomed to harvesting foul crops for even fouler hordes of Sauron's minions. As for how long they survived doing so, is unknown. If King Elessar had discovered any during his sieges and marches into Mordor, it is unknown. So therefore, the only way they truly live on that is certain, is through the agriculture of men and hobbits, and if there were any left at the end of the Third Age, then they wouldn't have been happy, to say the least.

[The Saucepan Man]

Tolkien wrote in his letters that it was possible the surviving Entwives were used as slaves in those fields, doomed to harvesting foul crops for even fouler hordes of Sauron's minions.

Is it possible, then, that after Sauron's defeat, the Ents and the Entwives might have been reunited? Happy thought. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gil-Galad]

did the ents help take Mordor just out of curistite!

[Lady Alasse]

I don't think the Ents helped to take Mordor. I think they stayed and gaurded Isengaurd and Sauron. Then even Treebeard was tricked by "Sharkey" and he let Saruman go.

I think it would be neat if someone would write about what happened to the entwives. They have always facinated me.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Is it possible, then, that after Sauron's defeat, the Ents and the Entwives might have been reunited? Happy thought.

posted by-The Saucepan Man


Tolkien strongly hinted against this in one of his letters.

[The Saucepan Man]

Tolkien strongly hinted against this in one of his letters.

Unhappy thought. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

But, if the Entwives were enslaved in Mordor, why wouldn't they be released when Sauron was defeated. Did they all die before the Ring was destroyed? Or did JRRT just discard the theory that they were slaves of Sauron?

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Some say they became the Olog-hai....

[The Saucepan Man]

So that would mean the Olog-hai were all female ... ?!!

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Possible 'twisted' Entwives mated with Male Trolls. I don't really know, It's just a theory that I heard. I don't really buy into it.

[DaughterofVana]

It's just a theory that I heard

Where from? That would be interesting to know.

Here's Mr. Underhill's Essay with the info I found on the Olog-hai. Reading through it, it speaks against the Entwives being as such (or the mothers thereof) because the breed was around before the Entwives disappeared (the Sil).

Agree or disagree? Or where the Entwives mentioned in the Sil?

-'Vana

[GaladrieloftheOlden]

I really think that Tolkien meant for the "walking willow tree" that Sam's cousin saw in chapter 1 was one of the Entwives, especially as Treebeard hinted that they would have liked the lands around the Shire.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

They're in the American Southwest. This one was hiking through Bryce Canyon in Utah.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

They're in the American Southwest. This one was hiking through Bryce Canyon in Utah.

Here's all that's left of them at Detroit Lake, Oregon:



Still walking, though, still walking!

[Galin]

Originally Posted by GaladrieloftheOlden

I really think that Tolkien meant for the "walking willow tree" that Sam's cousin saw in chapter 1 was one of the Entwives, especially as Treebeard hinted that they would have liked the lands around the Shire.

I think the being in the tale was compared to an Elm (as far as height, at first), but Tolkien had not yet invented the tale of the Entwives -- at least when this earlier part of the book was first written anyway (at this point possibly mannish 'giants' were part of The Lord of the Rings however, and these 'remained' in some sense in my opinion).

Also full grown Elm trees are notably taller than Ents to my mind. Of course, Treebeard himself was very tall in draft writing, but significantly reduced in size by the time the chapter Treebeard came to be written.

[Inziladun]

If it was an Entwife (or an Ent) Sam's cousin Hal saw on the North Moors, it might be odd that Aragorn, a well-seasoned traveller of the Shire and the lands about it, seems to have had no experience with them. At Isengard he questioned Merry and Pippin about Ents, and at no time intimated he had seen similar creatures before.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Galin

I think the being in the tale was compared to an Elm (as far as height, at first), but Tolkien had not yet invented the tale of the Entwives -- at least when this earlier part of the book was first written anyway (at this point possibly mannish 'giants' were part of The Lord of the Rings however, and these 'remained' in some sense in my opinion).

Also full grown Elm trees are notably taller than Ents to my mind. Of course, Treebeard himself was very tall in draft writing, but significantly reduced in size by the time the chapter Treebeard came to be written.

Another consideration is that, as ents seem to take on the qualities of the trees they tend and the Entiwives are said to have had a fondness for the smaller, more cultivated olvar (or is that kelvar, I always get the two confused). One would expect them to resemble such trees themselves. Quite simply,in my opinion, an elm is, for lack of a better term, too male a tree to be an entwife. A willow maybe (though of course Old Man Willow(even though he is likey a huorn, not a rouge ent) is described as Old Man Willow), but when I imagine Entwives, I imagine them as most closely resembling fruit or nut trees; apples, plums, hazels, etc. Of course, this is only how I see them

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Alfirin

Another consideration is that, as ents seem to take on the qualities of the trees they tend and the Entiwives are said to have had a fondness for the smaller, more cultivated olvar (or is that kelvar, I always get the two confused). One would expect them to resemble such trees themselves. Quite simply,in my opinion, an elm is, for lack of a better term, too male a tree to be an entwife. A willow maybe (though of course Old Man Willow(even though he is likey a huorn, not a rouge ent) is described as Old Man Willow), but when I imagine Entwives, I imagine them as most closely resembling fruit or nut trees; apples, plums, hazels, etc. Of course, this is only how I see them

But wouldn't entwives simply be the female form of all the kinds of trees? After all, for entlings to exist, one would expect some kind of same-species or same-genus fertilization. Or at the very least, it would be the entwives who would be fertile as the ents aren't capable of reproduction. For hollies, for example, one needs both male and female trees to cross pollinate in order to get holly berries.

[Galadriel]

They're in my back garden. Really.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

But wouldn't entwives simply be the female form of all the kinds of trees? After all, for entlings to exist, one would expect some kind of same-species or same-genus fertilization. Or at the very least, it would be the entwives who would be fertile as the ents aren't capable of reproduction. For hollies, for example, one needs both male and female trees to cross pollinate in order to get holly berries.

Maybe, maybe not. Ents remember are not in and of themselves trees, they just look like them. If i recall correctly, when they first appeared on Middle earth, Ent's did not much look like trees, they were simply tenders of them. It was as time progressed that the ents grew more and more like the trees they tended, just as some trees (the Huorns) became more an more like the ents (convergent evolution). So it is entirely possible that the tree an ent comes to resemble may be due to his habits or inclination, not his heriatage. of the four named ents in LOTR we have examples that resemble four different trees, Fangorn/Treebeard (an oak) the one who went into hiding becuse he was attacked (an elm or an ash, if I recall) the one who was almost asleep (a birch?) and Skinbark, who is described as a rowan (which technically means he may be a fruit bearing tree, depending on which rowan was meant). With such a small base, it's a little hard to tell if an ent mating requires an ent of the same tree, or if the specific tree appearance is personal. And since we never get to see entlings at all, we have no clue what they look like, or indeed how they are produced, whether as seed or as baby. Huorns would presumably need a member of the same type since they are descended of tree (unless they are capable of using non awakened members of thier species) At least those that are dioecious (like hollies (more or less,) or self incompatable would, fully synecios species could probably propigate on thier own.
Actually I just had a really weird image in my mind. If ents do come to resemble the trees they tend, and if Ents lived in a much wider swath, I wonder if there might be in Far Harad skinny leafy topped ents who are so becuse they tend palms!

[Morthoron]

Mulch.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Mulch.

I vote for firewood. Sauron wasn't much of a gardener.

[Alfirin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I vote for firewood. Sauron wasn't much of a gardener.

Plus given how disgusting Orchish habits are, Nurn probably did not lack for fertilizer (though I imagine crops grown in Orc dung taste foul to anyone but an orc...)

I agree, firewood, or timber
(I wonder now if Grond's body was really made from merely a large tree........)