Man to Man in Araman!!!!!

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I've read this on N&N, and was appalled by the mentality of most people: They think Finarfin is a wimp.

Here is what I think: Had Finarfin been alone, he would have gone with Fëanor. But he was thinking of the people Fëanor is leading(ironically, Fëanor doesn't care) Those people, although unwilling, still followed the misguided maven. Upon hearing the Doom Mandos pronounced on them, Fëanor still was blinded by his desire for revenge. He simply didn't care!

Obviously, someone has to think about the people. Someone did.

So, is Finarfin really a wimp?

->Elenrod

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I too have been surprised over the years at how hard a time Finarfin gets on this forum from some Downers. I always liked Finarfin. He didn't think much of Feanor but that was understandable.

[Olorin_TLA]

So Finarfin's a wimp for standing up to Feanor?

That must mean Feanro's a wimp for standing up to Morogth then.

Maybe if Finarfin killed Feanor, all his followers, etc, that'd be better for everyone. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Leyrana Silumiel]

I rather liked Finarfin's character. People shouldn't bash him. *pout*

[Finwe]

I'll be the Devil's Advocate in this case. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Most people think that Finarfin is a wimp, because compared to his two half-brothers, Fëanor and Fingolfin, he was a wimp. We aren't given concrete reasons as to why exactly he and his people turned back, after the Doom of Mandos was pronounced. The way that it is stated in the Silmarillion, he appears to be turning back out of fear. Since when, in all of human history, have we ever admired any sort of fear?

Honestly, even his sister went to Beleriand. What does that tell you? I'm not being sexist (I'm a girl), but in all those old stories, the male heroes were all mightier than the females, even in the case of the Elves. Now if his sister had enough courage to stick to her guns and go to Middle-earth, why did ickle Finarfie turn back?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

I may not know about Finarfin's sister(yes, I don't - so?), but many of the House of Finwe who went to Middle-earth because of their desire for power. Maybe save Fingolfin, but he was constrained by his oath to follow; Finarfin less so. And maybe, as someone with rank, Fingolfin hopes to redress the evil Fëanor might do on Middle-earth.

So it's a question of prevention vis-à-vis redress. They both did well in their power. Finarfin was not a wimp to leave the host. Add to the fact that, upon leaving, he might be called a coward(not only by those people but by the people here [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ) - yet he continued with what he believed was right.

->Elenrod

[Lalaith]

Finarfin's daughter Galadriel went, I don't know about any sister.
And I also don't know about males being more powerful than females. Wasn't Luthien was the most powerful elf that ever lived...and Tolkien ranks Galadriel alongside Feanor in might...
Finarfin was married to a Teleri elf, Earwen of Alqualonde, and so was bound to take a very dim view of the kinslaying, more so than his brother Fingolfin. His children, being younger, perhaps put the desire for independence over family loyalty.

[Carannillion]

Lúthien is mentioned as the most beautiful to ever walk ME, but not as the most powerful elf of all times. I am not saying that she is not, I am simply questioning the background for that statement.
Yes, she did stand up against Melkor, but others did too. Fingolfin and Fëanor for example.
However, the reasons for these acts of courage were somewhat different.
Lúthien did it out of love for Beren - and to a certain degree her father, her mother and Doriath.
Fingolfin's challenge to Melkor seems to me as a very "epic-heroic" act of selflessness out of love for his people. The war against Melkor was too hard for his people to bear, and so he chose to take the full responsibility himself, and challenge Morgoth alone. Some may say that he knew how it would end, and thus actually committed suicide. But what does that give us? Was it a selfish act to escape the despair, or was it a matter of honor (*mind drawing parallells to hara-kiri*)? Either way, Fingolfin carried it through, alone. Alone against a god, but he did not surrender.

-> Digression: I just realized, my signature relates very good to this situation...

Did Fingolfin love his people? Yes.
Fëanor is a different matter, yet not quite. He was obsessed with the Silmarils. Obsessed to the point of madness? Yes, I would say that. Whose fault was this? Fëanor created the Silmarils, so we could always blame him. Or, in the crafting of the Silmarils, did Fëanor perhaps step beyond his boundaries without even knowing it? Aüle was his mentor, could it be that Aüle had passed on knowledge too powerful for Fëanor to have? Fëanor was meant for ME, not Aman. This again, leads us on to the question of free will and the basic nature of people (:elves). If Fëanor had free will, he could have chosen not to make the Silmarils. He did choose to do so, but does this make him evil? Was he downright evil from the start? I say no. In creating the Silmarils, he unleashed a power not meant for him, but the question of guilt is a question possibly impossible to answer. Was it out of love for the Silmarils, or out of madness?

*steering self back to original topic*

Now, as for Finarfin's supposed cowardice, i believe we can "blame" his turning back more on love. His love for what he was on the verge of leaving behind for ever created a fear in him - no, rather a sense of despair. How could he possibly have continued as an exile? His fear came as a result of his love - where he had his love.

Galadriel's choice of continuing came, I believe, from her sense of pride. However, where that came from is another matter, and I am tired. I'll get back to it later on, perhaps. Unless someone else does it first, that is [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 6:34 PM January 09, 2004: Message edited by: Carannillion ]

[Lhunardawen]

Can we blame Finarfin if he was not a power-hungry Noldor unlike Feanor? Maybe alongside Feanor and Fingolfin he would look like a coward. Whether he withdrew from going to Middle-Earth for his fear or love or whatever reason he might have, I don't think that he should be called a wimp for doing what he did. Now, I have one thing to ask to those who think he's a wimp: If you had one of the Valar revealed in his wrath before you, cursing all people who followed your brother whom in the first place (you knew) was doing the wrong thing... would you still go with him? Or would you do what Finarfin did? Think well!

-The White Lady of Lindon-

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 12:31 AM January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Lhunardawen ]

[Lord of Angmar]

Lúthien is mentioned as the most beautiful to ever walk ME, but not as the most powerful elf of all times.

Actually, I believe she is mentioned as such. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[EDIT]: By the way, Finarfin was no wimp. It is called conflicting loyalties and following your conscience.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:16 AM January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Falagar]

I don't believe Finarfin was a wimp, although I'm a big fan of Fëanor. What I've always held against Finarfin is that he is a boring character. A wise one perhaps, but a boring one nontheless.

And I believe Finarfin's choice was based more on grief than love (or cowardism):

But in that hour Finarfin forsook the march, and turned back, being filled with grief, and bitterness towards the house of Fëanor, because of the kinship with Olwë of Alqualondë; and many of his people went with him, retracing their steps in sorrow, until they beheld once more the fair beam of the Mindon upon Túna shining in th night, and so came at last to Valinor.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 10:54 AM January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Falagar ]

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 11:15 AM January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Falagar ]

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Boring? Are we to say that Huor, for example, was a boring character because we didn't hear too much about him?

I have heard people before calling the Vanyar in general boring but I think this is ridiculous. Just because they didn't march off to war at the snap of some fingers.

[Falagar]

No, but mostly because we don't get to know much of how he felt. "Boring" was perhaps not the right word, "not as interesting" fits better. He doesn't do much, and is the typical good guy: always caring, always 'doing the right thing'. Fëanor is a much more complex character, a character which most people either hate or love. When I read about Finarfin, with the exception of the paragraph I quoted, few feelings are stirred (at least compared to when reading the last paragraph of "Of Fëanor").

This is all, of course, IMO.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 7:13 PM January 10, 2004: Message edited by: Falagar ]

[Finwe]

Eomer, I wouldn't call someone who went down fighting with an arrow in his eye, boring. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Huor isn't boring because he sacrificed himself for the future of Middle-earth. He even told Turgon that the latter needed to escape, because the hope of Middle-earth would be born from both of their houses (*coughcoughEarendilcoughcough*). He isn't boring because he knew that Turgon had to live, and that he just might have to die. Unfortunately, to not be boring, you have to either do something suicidal, lead a rebellion, challenge a foe who you don't have a hope of defeating, or sacrifice yourself for others.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

...or do something evil, but that's another story...

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 9:47 PM January 11, 2004: Message edited by: Nilpaurion Felagund ]

[Er-Murazor]

Or perhaps he just did have enough sense to realize that Feanor had become an absolute madman consumed by the lust for revenge.

[Falagar]

And lies. And grief.

[Finwe]

Unfortunately, since the ones with common sense don't get themselves into desperate situations, they are rarely remembered, which is definitely the case with our beloved Arfie.

[Carannillion]

Falagar:

What do you consider grief to be a product of? Would there be grief if there was no love?

[Falagar]

The grief for his father, whom he loved more than anyone else ever have.

<font size=1 color=339966>[ 1:51 PM January 13, 2004: Message edited by: Falagar ]

[doug*platypus]

In Tolkien's world, children are quite often like their parents. Okay, so that's an enormous generalisation... feel free to prove me wrong. However, I don't think that Finrod and Galadriel (not too sure about the others) could have been sired by a "wimp".

True, he was a pretty wee thing, and not as valiant as Fingolfin or as skilled as Fëanor, but who was? Talk about tough competition! Fëanor told Morgoth (you know, the big Dark Lord, most powerful being in Eä) to get the **** off his property, and Fingolfin took a sword to him! How could anyone possibly compare with those guys? But what Finarfin did inherit from Finwë was loyalty and moral fibre.

The text doesn't appear to show him favourably. He is said to turn back out of grief, and bitterness to the House of Fëanor. The emphasis appears to be on the grief (because it is mentioned first), and this paints a picture in our mind of a wussy boy. If his anger towards Fëanor was emphasised, and if a confrontation occurred between Finarfin and his half-brother, he would not be judged a wimp by anybody. Perhaps the fact that we judge him so harshly tells us more about ourselves than about him?

Finarfin stood up against peer pressure and did what he thought was the right thing. Not very wimpy. Also, he may have been most suited of the brothers to a life in the Blessed Realm. No doubt because he seemed to lack their warlike inclinations.

[Maédhros]

Let's revise the events before and after the Kinslaying at Alqualondë. When Fëanor returned from Formenos after the death of his father Finwë, and lead the rebellion in Tirion, most of the Ñoldor were eager to be gone. There were those who didn't want to go but wouldn't leave their people.
The divided host of the Ñoldor went eastward from Tirion to Alqualondë, with Fëanor's host in front, followed by that of Fingolfin's and at last there was Finarfin. After the Kinslaying, in which the host of Fëanor and some of Fingolfin took part, they headed north towards Araman.
Finarfin at that time had seen or passed by Alqualondë to see the results of the battle, and knowing what had happened there, he followed the other Ñoldorian hosts northward to Araman.
If Finarfin is as some people on this thread have said that he had superior moral fiber, why did he had to wait for the Doom of Mandos spoken by either Námo or a messanger from the Valar to turn back. Why didn't his superior moral fiber allowed him to know before a warning from the Valar that the Kinslaying was wrong and that he should turn back towards Valinórë.

Finarfin stood up against peer pressure and did what he thought was the right thing. Not very wimpy. Also, he may have been most suited of the brothers to a life in the Blessed Realm. No doubt because he seemed to lack their warlike inclinations.

He stood up against peer pressure after the Doom of Mandos was uttered. Were was his high moral fiber before that?

Another thought that comes to my mind, is that I have seen a person post at another thread that Finarfin's son, Finrod Felagund took part in the Kisnslaying at Alqualondë. It is my impression after reading the Published Silmarillion and several others HoME books that it is not so. I asked that person to post where did he get that information regarding Finrod Felagund that I had missed, but he/she had not done so in that thread. Perhaps it could be done in this one?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I fail to see why, because he obeyed the Valar, Finarfin is a wimp.

[Maédhros]

I fail to see why, because he obeyed the Valar, Finarfin is a wimp.

A person of high moral character would not have needed a warning from the Valar to do the right thing.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Now, to refute you.

Let's analyse the events. Finarfin sees Kinslaying. He could have reacted in two ways.

1. Leave the host to that maniac who just killed his kin. Think what more Fëanor could do in Middle-earth, with himself as king.

Soldier: Our air wing has been lost.
Fëanor: I don't care! Anyone who doesn't attack is a coward!
Soldier (mumbling): Great...

Yes, I know there is no air wing in Arda during that time, but you can substitute anything - a tactician, the archery backup, or a cavalry assault force.

With his depraved state of mind, he could annihilate the entirety of the Noldor! With only Fingolfin to stop him! I don't think he could have lived with that, therefore he did #2...

2. Stay with that maniac in hopes of using your cool, calm, collected mindset to push possibly debilitating actions slightly.

If all else fails, use overwhelming majority to push actions. Fëanor and his sons aren't scared of just a majority. Their handful ravaged the Havens of Sirion. So you'll need to overwhelm them, in case something goes...wrong.

Cute understatement.

Then, the Doom of Mandos. Great. Now, his only reason to go on is zapped. No matter what he and his brother can do, tell, or sing to Fëanor, all will go wrong. Why waste all your people in a hopeless quest?

He went back. Not a wimpy decision.

[Maédhros]

1. Leave the host to that maniac who just killed his kin. Think what more Fëanor could do in Middle-earth, with himself as king.

Remember that, although Fëanor had claimed the kingship of the Ñoldor, the majority of them still held Fingolfin as their king and if you read the Shibboleth of Fëanor

Fingolfin had prefixed the name Finwë to Ñolofinwë before the Exiles reached Middle-earth. This was in pursuance of his claim to be the chieftain of all the Ñoldor after the death of Finwë, and so enraged Fëanor that it was no doubt one of the reasons for his treachery in abandoning Fingolfin and stealing away with all the ships.

If both of the hosts of the Ñoldor had reached ME at the same time, the majority of them would have taken Fingolfin as their king.

Stay with that maniac in hopes of using your cool, calm, collected mindset to push possibly debilitating actions slightly.

That was actually the mindset of Fingon urging his father to follow the host. The thing is that Fingolfin had to follow Fëanor, for he had given his word to him before.

Then, the Doom of Mandos. Great. Now, his only reason to go on is zapped. No matter what he and his brother can do, tell, or sing to Fëanor, all will go wrong. Why waste all your people in a hopeless quest?

This doesn't adds up. Finarfin knew before that that it was a hopeless quest.
From the Published Silmarillion

But even as the trumpet sang and Fëanor issued from the gates of Tirion a messenger came at last from Manwë, saying: 'Against the folly of Fëanor shall be set my counsel only. Go not forth! For the hour is evil, and your road leads to sorrow that ye do not foresee. No aid will the Valar lend you in this quest; but neither will they hinder you; for this ye shall know: as ye came hither freely, freely shall ye depart. But thou Fëanor Finwë's son, by thine oath art exiled. The lies of Melkor thou shalt unlearn in bitterness. Vala he is, thou saist Then thou hast sworn in vain, for none of the Valar canst thou overcome now or ever within the halls of Eä, not though Eru whom thou namest had made thee thrice greater than thou art.'

At that time, before the Doom of Mandos, the Ñoldor knew that no matter what they did, they could not overcome Morgoth. I want to make a clarification. I did not say that going back was a wimpy decision on the part of Finarfin, I said that it was wimpy of him to go back after the Doom of Mandos was uttered. Lets see the facts:

1. Finarfin knew that the quest of the Ñoldor to beat Morgoth was hopeless.
2. He knew that before the kinslaying, to follow Fëanor was not a good thing.
3. He knew that the Kinslaying at Alqualondë was a horrible act.
4. Finarfin had passed from Alqualondë to the Wastes of Araman following Fëanor.

Now the questions that I make is simple. If Finarfin had this knowledge in advance, why couldn't he make the right decision by himself that he should have turned back inmediately after the Kinslaying of Alqualondë?
To me, he had not the inner strenght to go back by himself, he needed the waring of the Valar to do that.
What if the Doom of the Valar had been uttered after the Ñoldor had reached ME? Too late Finarfin.

[doug*platypus]

For any else that is interested, here is a link to the thread that Maédhros asked for on the possible role of Finrod at the Kinslaying. That discussion and this one, of course, have much in common.

Finrod and the Kinslaying

Although I still applaud Finarfin for his decision to turn back (which I believe was heroic in a "cut your losses and save your bacon" kind of way), I think Maédhros has raised a valid point about his motivation. If we assume that Finarfin knew about the events at Alqualondë shortly after they occurred, then the main thing that made him turn back was the Doom of Mandos.

So, was he simply swayed by fear? I don't believe so. Fëanor could have been just as scary as Mandos... well, nearly. I prefer to think that the warning of Manwë and the wrath of the Valar showed Finarfin the error of his people's ways. And also I suppose, most of his followers would have been keen to go home after Mandos had spoken to them. The part Finarfin had to play as leader of his host may have been small; it could have been more of a mob rule kind of decision.

But at any rate, Finarfin stood out from his brothers by not allowing pride to rule him. He reaped the rewards, too. I think you could probably say that he had a happier life than Fingolfin, despite the lost chances for glory, and the fact that he is called a wimp!

[Maédhros]

A little chronology of the Events: (All of the timelines are from Annals of Aman)

Year of the Trees
1495
Morgoth destroys the Two Trees
1st Kinslaying at Alqalondë

1496
Doom and Prophecy of Mandos

A Year of the Trees had already passed between the two events. And in order to reach the Wastes of Araman, one needed to go through Alqualondë and then north to Araman. Finarfin definitely had already knowledge of the Kinslaying. The other alternative was that he was an idiot and I don't believe that he was.

It is sad but if you look in detail at what happened, the thing that made Finarfin turn back was the Doom of Mandos. A person of high moral character wouldn't have needed a warning such as that to go back, he would have done it himself because it was the right thing to do.

[symestreem]

Is it possible that Finarfin did not know the true facts of the Kinslaying? It says of the battle,

Thrice the people of Feanor were driven back, and many were slain upon either side; but the vanguard of the Noldor was succoured by Fingon, with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin, who coming up found a battle joined and their own kin falling, and rushed in before they knew rightly the cause of the quarrel; some thought indeed that the Teleri had sought to waylay the march of the Noldor and the bidding of the Valar.

[Kuruharan]

I'd still say that Finarfin had more moral fiber (and certainly less mule-headed stubbornness) than his brothers, even if it did take the Doom of Mandos to make him come to his senses. The point is that at least he came to his senses, which is more than can be said for Feanor or Fingolfin.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

If I appear stubborn in my defence of Finarfin's action, forgive me. Like how you forgive someone for helping his grandfather.

After the Kinslaying, why didn't Finarfin - and Fingolfin - not leave the host?

They probably had the same hope as the Valar...

Now [the Valar] watched and waited, for they did not yet believe that Fëanor could hold the host of the Noldor to his will.

(The Silmarillion 9 - emphasis mine)

The Noldor was dismayed at the death of the Trees, and of their king, so they would have followed anyone who could explain what happened, and what they should do.

Of course, it had to be hot-headed Fëanor who had to do the explaining for them.

Now,

[Fingolfin] marched against his wisdom...because he would not be sundered from his people that were eager to go, nor leave them to the rash counsels of Fëanor...with Fingolfin went Finarfin also, and for like reasons...

(The Silmarillion 9)

In the Kinslaying, the only ones who participated are those who are loyal to Fëanor and those who didn't understand how the fight began. Thus the hope still lived that maybe this people will cool their heads - except Fëanor's host, probably -, turn back, and pretend like it's all a dream - except for a punishment or two for those who joined the massacre.

The main point of the opposition - Maédhros, that's you. - is that Finarfin only turned because of the Doom of Mandos. Scared, perhaps, or some other reason that still degrades personal morality. But I think the reason that Finarfin turned back only after the pronouncement of the Doom is that he realised that there will be no cooling of heads; or if their heads do cool, it would be too late.

...at the rear went Finarfin...and many of the noblest and the wisest of the Noldor; and often they looked behind them to see their fair city...

(The Silmarillion 9)

He still had a following. He still had cool-headed people who look up to him, who follow his lead. Would he move on, knowing the peril his people would face - be the Curse true or not?

He turned, because no-one else would stop and think of the consequence of their actions, except his people.