Tuor and Idril

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 210</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
The Sil. says Tuor alone of all men was &quot;counted&quot; as one of elvenkind. He and his wife take ship from the havens at the mouth of Sirion and sail West, a number of years before Earendil tries this trick. What happened to Tuor and Idril after they sailed and was Tuor really considered to be an elf despite the Valar's inability to strip men of mortality, the Gift of Eru?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 142</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

Tuor is admitted to Eldamar.
He was the only man admitted and welcomed to the elvish land.

Letter #153 (dated 1954) attests that Tuor was granted 'elvish immortality' by Eru himself, not as an act of the Valar.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 212</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

Hey Saul! How was Carmel? I'll check that letter out in the morning. Must of missed it. That one would have stuck in my mind if I had read it(carefully, Letters is a hard read and I tended to skim unless something caught my eye).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 143</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

Re: Carmel; was ok. Kind of cold actually. Might do something later this week.

Yes, look at the letter again. It's there and quite explicit.

</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 220</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

Explicit and yet not so. Letter 153 reads:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;the cases of Luthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God.&quot; <hr></blockquote>

But it also reads:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> &quot;Tuor weds Idril the daughter of Turgon King of Goldolin; and 'it is supposed' (not stated) that he as an unique exception receives the Elvish limited 'immortality'&quot; <hr></blockquote>

It does not say certainly that he became an elf or that he and Idril reached Eldamar. If he was &quot;made into&quot; an elf, then this is explained perhaps. But how did he get past the Shadowy Isles, etc. and reach Valinor and, if he did, why didn't he petition they Valar for pardon as his son did?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[HerenIstarion]

Wight
Posts: 111
Re: Tuor and Idril

Some vague idea of Ulmo acting as a protector for Tuor. After all, he went to Gondolin by Ulmo's will. So afterwards Ulmo was somehow obliged to help him. Maybe.

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 144</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Posted by Mithadan
It does not say certainly that he became an elf or that he and Idril reached Eldamar.<hr></blockquote>
No it does not say he became an Elf; only that he as a MAN was granted an 'Elvish immortality'. Essentially an immortal man (his fate was changed by an act of Eru) and stated as being the only exception.
Eldamar is stated in another text, as this letter does not involve every detail of the narrative.

As for petition; I don't recall him sailing west for that purpose at all, but simply due to sea longing. It would take Earendil and the Silmaril to fulfill the prophecy forseen by Cirdan and the Valar before the Valar would grant aid to a representative of both Children by intermarriage and blood.

</p>

[quam]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 89</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

Well if being in valinor means 'elvish immortality',then I know of 3 well-respected hobbits (one not that much after he disappeared,but still) who became immortal.

My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> ,http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/Mount Gundabad</A>, http://pub11.ezboard.com/bbagend16025/bag end</a> and <a href=http://pub20.ezboard.com/bdunedainscamp/">dunedains camp</a>,where I'm an RPG moderator
"Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid"
</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000053>quam</A>&nbsp; <IMG SRC=http://www.ezboard.com/ezgfx/gicons/black_thatch.gif BORDER=0 WIDTH=10 HEIGHT=10> at: 10/17/00 2:22:45 pm

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 149</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

You are paying attention to this discussion right?

</p>

[quam]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 92</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

yes i am. I just meant that to give a man immortality a special intervention by eru is needed and it is &quot;an unique exception, the Elvish limited 'immortality'&quot; , while at the end of the third age, BANG!, suddenly, three hobbits probably become immortal upon arriving in Aman. Although Eru could have had sth. to do with that as well, I don't think it is mentioned somewhere and if there are three hobbits involved, it's not that unique anymore.

My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> ,http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/Mount Gundabad</A>, http://pub11.ezboard.com/bbagend16025/bag end</a> and <a href=http://pub20.ezboard.com/bdunedainscamp/">dunedains camp</a>,where I'm an RPG moderator
"Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid"
</p>

[Saulotus]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 153</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

In response to the assumption that Hobbits became immortal...

LETTER #246
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien
'Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him- if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went to both a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amis the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.'<hr></blockquote>

LETTER #325
<blockquote>Quote:<hr> J.R.R. Tolkien
'As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time- whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer 'immortaility' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing, and they would eventually pass away ( die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.'<hr></blockquote>

Note: this addresses other mortals in Aman also (not just hobbits).


</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000133>Saulotus </A> at: 10/17/00 4:19:22 pm

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 224</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

Quam: Common misconception -- one which I also had after reading LoTR. One assumes that because the Hobbits had dispensation to go into the West they became elven-type &quot;immortals&quot;.

The first hint for me came when I read Akallabeth and JRRT discusses the &quot;Undying Lands&quot; as being &quot;undying&quot; only because of who lives there and not because of the land itself. He says that mortals would basically burn out more quickly there. This doesn't address the special circumstances of the Ringbearers though. As a result, there's no way for a reader to know for certain unless you get Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (which I recommend - great book). <img src=smile.gif ALT="">

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[quam]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 94</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

oops.
Anyway,will check my library for the letters then.

My tolkien favorites are <a href="http://www.tolkientrail.com/"target="web">the Tolkientrail</A>(michael martinez loved it!), http://www.barrowdowns.com/The Barrow-downs</A> and its http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/forum</a> ,http://pub24.ezboard.com/bmountgundabad/Mount Gundabad</A>, http://pub11.ezboard.com/bbagend16025/bag end</a> and <a href=http://pub20.ezboard.com/bdunedainscamp/">dunedains camp</a>,where I'm an RPG moderator
"Quis,Quae,Quid
Quem,Quam,Quid"
</p>

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 837</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor and Idril

Some unanswered questions here. Is the tale of Tuor and Idril sailing into the West and Tuor being &quot;numbered&quot; among the Noldor a 'myth'? Just a tale told among men and perhaps among elves to explain their disappearence?

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 9</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Mithladan

we did discuss this subject very briefly in the chat room where you had the idea of writing the The Fall of Gondolin from Tuor's eyes and i hope you write this story, despite the arguments posted i feel it is not inconcievable that Tuor could have dwelt on Tol-Eressea at the time of Aelfwine's visit
thanx

</p>

[HerenIstarion]

Deadnight Chanter
Posts: 1056
Re: Mithladan

I deem he must have been numbered among the eldar, and to be precise, among Noldor. But he reached Aman not, for no noldo was accepted to blessed realm until the time of Morgoth's overthrown and lifting of the ban on their return, so it may be assumed that Tuor and Idril perished in the sea, and got to the halls of awaiting. As for their probable reincarnation (for them, being faithful in a sense, needed not to abode there long) there is no textual evidence of that, nor even hint, as far as I know.

[Mithadan]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Spirit of Mist
Posts: 841</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Mithladan

But how can he be &quot;changed&quot; into an elf? The Sil. says that death is Eru's Gift to man and it is beyond the power of the Valar to take the Gift away. (I need to be convinced before I write about Tuor though this is not the purpose of this thread).

--Mithadan--
"The Silmarils with living light
were kindled clear, and waxing bright
shone like stars that in the North
above the reek of earth leap forth." </p>

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 100</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Mithladan

I am not sure that I would say he was 'changed' into an Elf.
JRRT says that 'as an unique exception he was (supposedly) granted the Elvish limited immortality' (paraphrased from Letter 153). Of course that could be taken as just semantics.
You are precisely correct when you say that it is beyond the power of the Valar to change the Gift Eru gave to Men. In Letter 153 JRRT says this and then says that the 'cases of Luthien and Tuor and the position of their descendants was the result of a direct act of God'. Eru granted Tuor 'immortality', not the Valar.

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

[Pengolodh]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 34</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Mithladan

True, and that is precisely why it is in fact possible

Also, Tuor became an Elf because of his incredible longing for the Sea and the West. His love for the Sea is mentioned several times in Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin. This only became stronger after he was &quot;empowered&quot; by Ulmo.

His love for the Noldor is also given as a reason by Tolkien, in Letters.

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 102</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Mithladan

Again I do not think he actually became an Elf. He was granted Elvish 'immortality'. But I do not think he was physically transformed into an Elf. The case is similar to that of Luthien. She was granted a Mannish 'mortality', but she still remaind a half-Elf, half-Maia (as is witnessed by Dior being of the blood of three races).

Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>

[Amandil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 47</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Mithladan

I saw Tuor gradually becoming more and more physically akin to the Noldor over time. If he became immortal this could have been very gradual and spread over the centuries. He already appeared fairly close to an elf already.
Could you imagine young elf after young elf in Eldamar asking why he looked different than everyone else after they encountered him for the first time? Especially if he forgot to shave!

</p>

[obloquy]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Newly Deceased
Posts: 9</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Tuor

Alas, if only UT's Of Tuor's Coming to Gondolin had been completed with the full, revised narrative of the Fall. One of the stories I would've truly loved to have had a complete stand-alone novel on.

Although I must say the original Fall text is fantastic and touching in itself, and, in my opinion, only made more powerful by its archaic style.

</p>

[Amandil]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Haunting Spirit
Posts: 55</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor

Absolutely. In the published Silmarillion, that story goes by waaaaay too fast.
Makes me go grab HoMe and start digging before I read on. At least when I am home. The first time I took all 12 volumes of HoME with me on a weekend trip, the wife was NOT happy.

But she let me get away with it and I have done so again. She never even notices UT, the Hobbit and the One book edition of LoTR after passing over those!!! <img src=wink.gif ALT="">

</p>

[Pengolodh]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Animated Skeleton
Posts: 37</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor

Tar-E

I did not mean that he became an Elf in physical appearance, although he already looked like one a lot, so we learn in Of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin.

He is also clearly counted as the greatest prince in Gondolin. I think he would have become Elvish in almost every possible way, except for fate, whic Iluvatar later took care off.

You have to note that Ulmo empowered him quite a bit. He had become a person of great stature, or so states the tale in the Silmarillion.

"In those days the Noldor still roamed the Hither Lands, Mightiest among the Children of Iluvatar, fair and tall and their beautiful voices were still heard by mere mortals"</p>

[Tar Elenion]

<font face="Verdana"><table><TR><TD><FONT SIZE="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Wight
Posts: 103</TD><TD></TD></TR></TABLE>
Re: Tuor

Pengolodh:
Okay. We may be saying similar things, in different ways.
I think that Tuor remained a Man in everything except fate. He was granted an 'Elvish immortality', but other than that I dont think he was 'changed'. Elves and Men were similar in appearence in any event, being of the same biological race.


Tar-Elenion--------------------- I will come with Fire and Sword, and put your cities to the Torch, your men to the Blade, your women and children in Chains</p>Edited by: <A HREF=http://www.barrowdowns.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_profile&u=00000211>Tar Elenion</A> at: 5/6/01 4:14:11 pm