The Numenoreans Return to ME - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

07-31-2002, 07:06 PM

Just for laughs I'm trying to construct for myself a better picture of what the Numenoreans were doing in ME during the Second Age and I'd like to solicit your opinions. If you have specific references that is always cool - it's nice to differentiate between pure speculation and "educated" speculation, but I don't think there is a lot of material on the subject (there's a lot I haven't read - what I know is from the Silmarillion and the LoTR appendices). Let me lead into what I'm curious about:

I know that the Numenoreans started returning to ME after 1200 and began to make more permanent dwellings shortly thereafter. I wonder where these would have been? My impression is that the Numenoreans mostly stayed out of Eriador and built havens along the more southerly coasts. Is there any talk about the them during Sauron's first incursion into Eriador (other than that they lent aid to Gil-Galad)?

Later, when things were more divisive the faithful Numenoreans gathered in (among other places) what would eventually become Gondor, correct? And the black numenoreans built strongholds farther south, notably in Umbar - before and after Sauron was taken to Numenor.

How much is known about the Numenoreans and their history in the South?

Thoughts?...

piosenniel · 07-31-2002, 09:08 PM

Welcome to the Downs, Kerplunk! Here's a very brief synopsis of what I know from reading, as you, the Trilogy and the Silmarillion, along with a few looks into The complete guide to Middle-Earth by R. Foster.

Numenor fell in II 3319. Sauron's body fell into the Sea during the cataclysm, but his spirit endured and returned to Barad-dûr, where he reorganized his realm - evil creatures, Men of Harad, Rhûn,, Umbar and the Black Numenoreans who had settled there and hated the Faithful as much as he did.

The Faithful included Elendil and his sons, Isildur and Anárion, who with 9 ships escaped to Middle-earth, landing in Lindon and the Pelargir.

Within a year they established the Realms in Exile - Arnor and Gondor. Arnor was in Eriador, which lay between the Misty Mountains and the Blue Mountains. Gondor was further south and abutted Mordor.

Elendil reigned in Arnor, in Annùminas. Much of the rest of Eriador paid allegiance to Gil-galad.

In II3429, Sauron attacked Gondor. Gil-galad and Elendil proposed the Last Alliance to fight him. They gathered their troops for about two years and then spent another three years in the making of plans, weapons, and gathering additional troops as they marched toward Mordor. It was a huge host which fought the troops of Mordor on the plain of Dagorlad, just north of the Black Gate. The alliance prevailed, and Sauron's army retreated to Barad-dûr, where they were besieged for many years. In II 3446 Sauron came out of Barad-dûr and faced his foes. Elendil and Gil-galad were slain, Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand, and once again Sauron's spirit fled. The victory was not complete as the Ring was not destroyed.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Kuruharan · 07-31-2002, 09:21 PM

I don't know if it's "educated" speculation, but here goes...

I think that your hunch about the Numenorians staying to the southern areas is mostly right. The northern area of Middle earth was mostly a preserve of the Elves who might not welcome all these new settlements of humans, even though they were Numenorians. Perhaps especially so because the Numenorians' empire building in Middle earth was partly a compensation for their inability to gain immortality and they might have motives that the Elves might not approve.

Aside from saying that the colonies initially started by teaching and helping the uncivilized Men that they encountered, and ended up dominating and ruling them, there really is not much more to say beyond what piosenniel already posted.

[ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

Elrian · 07-31-2002, 09:40 PM

Yes the Numenoreans did build a haven close to Eraidor in the North, where they gathered lumber to take back to Numenor. And could sail up as far as Tharbad. They built Lond Daer at the mouth of the River Gwathlo, Called Vinyalonde during the time of Tar Aldarion. More can be found in the Tale of Aldarion and Erendis in Unfinished Tales.

burrahobbit · 07-31-2002, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Yes the Numenoreans did build a haven close to Eraidor in the North

That was from whence they deforested the Old Forest. It used to go all the way to Fangorn, but then it didn't.

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

08-01-2002, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Yes the Numenoreans did build a haven close to Eraidor in the North, where they gathered lumber to take back to Numenor. And could sail up as far as Tharbad. They built Lond Daer...

That's really interesting and something I had not read. I had imagined the Dark Numenoreans first (circa 2000) building outposts in order to traffic in tribute, slaves, and materials (although I hadn't even thought of lumber - pretty important if you live on an island) and later expanding those outposts into little kingdoms just for the sake of vanity. And that it was probably difficult to regulate these little fiefdoms even with the encampment in Umbar.

I'm sure this is an boring topic for most, but I'm really interested in what a political map of the latter half of the Second Age might have looked like.

BTW when I wrote about "educated" speculation I only meant that I wanted to know if people were positing their own ideas or things they had actually read. Not that some ideas might be "better" than others.

Cheers!

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 08-01-2002, 08:25 AM

Wasn't the Kingdom of Arnor (pre-Gondor) Numenorean?

piosenniel · 08-01-2002, 08:34 AM

Aldagrim Proudfoot

See the second post above:

Quote:

Within a year they established the Realms in Exile - Arnor and Gondor. Arnor was in Eriador, which lay between the Misty Mountains and the Blue Mountains. Gondor was further south and abutted Mordor.

Manwe Sulimo · 08-01-2002, 09:40 AM

Númenórean outposts in Middle-earth, pre-fall:

Vinyalondë (Lond Daer): North Havens, south of Lindon and west of Tharbad. The Númenórean host under Tar-Minastir landed there in II 1700 and defeated Sauron in Eriador.

Pelargir: Middle Havens, in Gondor. Main stronghold of the Faithful in Middle-earth, later the southern guard of Gondor against the Haradrim and Corsairs.

Umbar: South Havens. Ar-Pharazôn landed there in II 3261 to challenge Sauron. It was (in III 1448 and 1856) taken by Gondorian rebels (descendents of Castamir) and became an ally of Mordor. Location of the City of the Corsairs.

The Havens were constructed for the usual reasons (money, trade, power), because the Númenóreans were forbidden to travel West.

07-31-2002, 07:06 PM	#1
kerplunk Guest Posts: n/a	The Numenoreans Return to ME Just for laughs I'm trying to construct for myself a better picture of what the Numenoreans were doing in ME during the Second Age and I'd like to solicit your opinions. If you have specific references that is always cool - it's nice to differentiate between pure speculation and "educated" speculation, but I don't think there is a lot of material on the subject (there's a lot I haven't read - what I know is from the Silmarillion and the LoTR appendices). Let me lead into what I'm curious about: I know that the Numenoreans started returning to ME after 1200 and began to make more permanent dwellings shortly thereafter. I wonder where these would have been? My impression is that the Numenoreans mostly stayed out of Eriador and built havens along the more southerly coasts. Is there any talk about the them during Sauron's first incursion into Eriador (other than that they lent aid to Gil-Galad)? Later, when things were more divisive the faithful Numenoreans gathered in (among other places) what would eventually become Gondor, correct? And the black numenoreans built strongholds farther south, notably in Umbar - before and after Sauron was taken to Numenor. How much is known about the Numenoreans and their history in the South? Thoughts?...

07-31-2002, 09:08 PM	#2
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Welcome to the Downs, Kerplunk! Here's a very brief synopsis of what I know from reading, as you, the Trilogy and the Silmarillion, along with a few looks into The complete guide to Middle-Earth by R. Foster. Numenor fell in II 3319. Sauron's body fell into the Sea during the cataclysm, but his spirit endured and returned to Barad-dûr, where he reorganized his realm - evil creatures, Men of Harad, Rhûn,, Umbar and the Black Numenoreans who had settled there and hated the Faithful as much as he did. The Faithful included Elendil and his sons, Isildur and Anárion, who with 9 ships escaped to Middle-earth, landing in Lindon and the Pelargir. Within a year they established the Realms in Exile - Arnor and Gondor. Arnor was in Eriador, which lay between the Misty Mountains and the Blue Mountains. Gondor was further south and abutted Mordor. Elendil reigned in Arnor, in Annùminas. Much of the rest of Eriador paid allegiance to Gil-galad. In II3429, Sauron attacked Gondor. Gil-galad and Elendil proposed the Last Alliance to fight him. They gathered their troops for about two years and then spent another three years in the making of plans, weapons, and gathering additional troops as they marched toward Mordor. It was a huge host which fought the troops of Mordor on the plain of Dagorlad, just north of the Black Gate. The alliance prevailed, and Sauron's army retreated to Barad-dûr, where they were besieged for many years. In II 3446 Sauron came out of Barad-dûr and faced his foes. Elendil and Gil-galad were slain, Isildur cut the ring from Sauron's hand, and once again Sauron's spirit fled. The victory was not complete as the Ring was not destroyed. [ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: piosenniel ] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

07-31-2002, 09:21 PM	#3
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,591	I don't know if it's "educated" speculation, but here goes... I think that your hunch about the Numenorians staying to the southern areas is mostly right. The northern area of Middle earth was mostly a preserve of the Elves who might not welcome all these new settlements of humans, even though they were Numenorians. Perhaps especially so because the Numenorians' empire building in Middle earth was partly a compensation for their inability to gain immortality and they might have motives that the Elves might not approve. Aside from saying that the colonies initially started by teaching and helping the uncivilized Men that they encountered, and ended up dominating and ruling them, there really is not much more to say beyond what piosenniel already posted. [ July 31, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ] __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

07-31-2002, 09:40 PM	#4
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Yes the Numenoreans did build a haven close to Eraidor in the North, where they gathered lumber to take back to Numenor. And could sail up as far as Tharbad. They built Lond Daer at the mouth of the River Gwathlo, Called Vinyalonde during the time of Tar Aldarion. More can be found in the Tale of Aldarion and Erendis in Unfinished Tales. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

08-01-2002, 08:25 AM	#7
Aldagrim Proudfoot Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 328	Wasn't the Kingdom of Arnor (pre-Gondor) Numenorean? __________________ I do not suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!

08-01-2002, 09:40 AM	#9
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Númenórean outposts in Middle-earth, pre-fall: Vinyalondë (Lond Daer): North Havens, south of Lindon and west of Tharbad. The Númenórean host under Tar-Minastir landed there in II 1700 and defeated Sauron in Eriador. Pelargir: Middle Havens, in Gondor. Main stronghold of the Faithful in Middle-earth, later the southern guard of Gondor against the Haradrim and Corsairs. Umbar: South Havens. Ar-Pharazôn landed there in II 3261 to challenge Sauron. It was (in III 1448 and 1856) taken by Gondorian rebels (descendents of Castamir) and became an ally of Mordor. Location of the City of the Corsairs. The Havens were constructed for the usual reasons (money, trade, power), because the Númenóreans were forbidden to travel West. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."