An Arwen Discrepancy

[The Silver-shod Muse]

This is probably one of those questions that ends up being answered with "it doesn't matter". All the same, it's queries like these that keep the forum interesting, albeit cluttered with superfluous nonsense.

When Arwen married Aragorn she threw her eternal lot with that of men. Now, because Elves age slowly, up to that point she probably looked like a youngster next to eighty-odd Aragorn. Do you think that she aged much quicker after that and caught him up, or that she just began aging at wherever she was, or that she didn't age at all?

I believe the same question could be asked for Luthien, though in the Silm she is still described as striking after becoming a mortal woman, leaving me with the impression that she looked the same as before, only mortal. Does Tolkien ever address this?

Thanks,
the Muse

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: The Silver-shod Muse ]

[Anna Licumo]

Erm, Tolkien didn't ever state my theory, but:

I always thought she didn't age, or get sick, or anything of that nature, but stayed "Elf-like" (remember, all the inhabitants of Gondor said she was the fairest creature they'd ever laid eyes on- I doubt they'd say that if she suddenly turned into a two hundred year old hag.) until her death. It was always my impression she did not turn mortal, but instead decided that she would die with Aragorn, and not live on, even in ME and certinly not in Valinor. However, this is just me, and I cannot claim to have Tolkien's quotes to back up my theory. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Susan Delgado]

Interesting theory, Anna, and I would basically agree, although she did outlive him by two or three hundred years.
She probably didn't look significantly different; she was still an Elf, just and Elf with an expiration date, so to speak (and no pun intended)

[The Silver-shod Muse]

she did outlive him by two or three hundred years.

She did?!? I had no idea. Is that in the appendices, or somewhere else?

[Anna Licumo]

Interesting theory, Anna, and I would basically agree, although she did outlive him by two or three hundred years.

First off, thank you!, but I think in the appendics it implied that she died almost right after Aragorn did. At least she left Gondor and died in Lorien, so I wouldn't give it more than a year between. I'll try and look up the quote, though, you may be right. Aish, my brain is slipping! o_0

[Belin]

she did outlive him by two or three hundred years.

That wasn't my impression. After Aragorn died,

the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell...and passed away to the land of Lorien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. ... There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth

This is Appendix A. It sounds to me like she lived for less than a year after Aragorn's death.

The physical change that came over her is interesting as well, in view of the original topic of this thread. She had of course been mortal for a long time already, but with the death of her husband, her mortality became physically apparent (she now reminded people of death and winter and night--and what about the light in her eyes?) just as she understood it for the first time when he spoke to her on his deathbed.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[Brionna]

I think it is only appropriate that Arwen's death play in harmony with Aaragorn's. Because her mortality was due to her joining to him, it makes sense that her death be closely entwined.

Even though some may say that Tolkein wasn't a strong writer of romance (me included, at times [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ), to me the "death" portion of Aragorn's and Arwen's story is done with a poetic stroke that is both wistful and satisfying.

[Owain son of Urien]

[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Good question TSsM. This is a thing that I have always had a problem with. HOW, would an immortal become mortal simply through choice? Why not the other way around? Marriage to Arwen makes Aragorn an Elf? It's just as logical.
As Brionna says, Arwen's fate is THE saddest, most poignant, most romantic part of the story, and I love it (and her) for that; but I can not understand WHY it should have to happen that way.
We find the same thing with Elros and Elrond. One "choses" to be mortal, the other "choses" to be immortal. It's as if it is no more difficult a thing to do than choosing your nationality. But whereas I could become a different nationality through choice, I would remain Male, I would remain white, I would remain human.
Arwen SHOULD retain whatever physical attributes she possessed by being the race she is, whatever course of action she chose to take.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

luthien lived until all that she had was lost, which in this case was aragorn.

and, btw, aragorn was probably past 80, and didnt look too old because his race lived for much longer than normal men.

hope that helped a bit [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Galorme]

Aragorn was around 80 at the time of LoTRs Being a man of Westenesse he lives on and on, and died at the age of ::checks LoTR:: well six score years after he was crowned, at which age he was 88. You do the maths.

[Ravenna]

The choice between mortal and elven was offered by the Valar to Elros and Elrond due to their parents being who they were, and I suppose to what they had achieved. They were half elven and would presumably without the choice, lived the life of the Eldar. Elrond chose to be elven and to his direct line and only them was given also that choice. They had the potentiality of both races, I suppose rather like someone with dual nationality, and could choose which they wanted to be.

[The Silver-shod Muse]

But whereas I could become a different nationality through choice, I would remain Male, I would remain white, I would remain human.
Arwen SHOULD retain whatever physical attributes she possessed by being the race she is, whatever course of action she chose to take.

Good point Owain, and I think that this theory sounds quite feasible. Mortality was a course of action, not a change of blood or heritage.

This may be a bit off subject, but I always thought that (like most of you) she would have retained all of her physical attributes, but since she was so advanced in age, it wouldn't take her long in "human" years to pass away. As for her giving up her birthright, I always assumed that her pendant was symbolic of her immortality - hence the reason she passed it to Frodo which allowed him to join the rest of the elves as they crossed the waters - and that this was a choice entirely for her to make. Remember, Tolkien's writing is always laced with religion... the elves were most likely his vision of an untainted human, and their choice of immortality was probably much like free will. Just a thought.

[Brionna]

I like that idea a lot, Peregrin. Good post!

[Owain son of Urien]

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Hi peregrin_took_323 and Welcome. An interesting view. That's what I find is so good about Tolkien - everyone has their own 'take' on things - don't you think? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Ithaeliel]

Interesting theories, all. I believe the topic of Arwen and Luthien's mortality leaves another subject to be discussed: Had grief not been a factor for Arwen at the death of Aragorn, would she have lived much longer than him? Aragorn lived to be a little over 200 years old. The age at which he died would have been very young in the reckonings of the early Numenoreans. Elros Tar-Minyatur was alotted 400-odd years of life after he chose to be numbered among men, and those who came soon after him also lived for 500-600 years. Arwen, having more elven blood in her than Aragorn, might have, had she not died of grief, been allowed the same number of years more that Elros was when he made his choice.

[Kuruharan]

But what would have been the point? The whole reason that she chose to have a mortal life was so that she could live her life with Aragorn. Once he was gone there was no reason to stay.

The answer to your question is probably that without the grief she felt for Aragorn she would have lived forever.

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Kuruharan ]

[Elrian]

The answer to your question is probably that without the grief she felt for Aragorn she would have lived forever

The point is, when she did not go with Elrond into the West, she became Mortal, and eventually would have died. Elrond's children had the choice of going into the West and remaining Immortal or to stay and become Mortal, Elrond was told this when he himself made the choice at the end of the First Age. Arwen could not change that to live forever. And she had already lived for 2900 years.

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Elrian ]

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Good point, Ithaeliel - Arwen could have stayed on, I would agree. If she had loved life for its own sake, or if she had chosen, as widows often do, to stay for the sake of her children and grandchildren, I think she would have had the option to do so.

[Kuruharan]

The point is, when she did not go with Elrond into the West, she became Mortal, and eventually would have died. Elrond's children had the choice of going into the West and remaining Immortal or to stay and become Mortal, Elrond was told this when he himself made the choice at the end of the First Age. Arwen could not change that to live forever. And she had already lived for 2900 years.

Yes, that's true. However, I'm afraid that you missed my point. She loved Aragorn so much that she gave up her immortality for him. I don't think that there was anyway that once Aragorn died that the grief could not have killed her. That was just a part of her decision. So, if she had not fallen in love with Aragorn, which eventually caused the grief she felt for him, she would have lived forever.

So I'm afraid that I am respectfully disagreeing with the viewpoint that she could have chosen to stay.

[sunrabbit]

Okay, here's my question--what exactly does it mean for Men to die? I promise this is not completely off-topic--bear with me for a second. Why is it considered a gift by some, and a curse by others? Supposedly the Numenoreans fell because they wanted to escape the Doom of Men (mortal death) and tried to sail to Valinor. Aragorn says something to Arwen that confuses me, though. He suggests that she could repent of her choice to live a mortal life and sail to the Undying Lands, but that if she did, their life together would only be a memory. Then he says, "In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory." Thereby suggesting that, on the other hand, if she stays and dies a mortal death, they will have a future together in the next life. Or at least, that's what it seems like he is saying. So, I guess what I'm wondering is--is there something more REAL or PROGRESSIVE about dying a mortal death and moving on, as opposed to living forever without passing into a life beyond the grave? Aragorn's words to Arwen seem to suggest that there is value in dying a mortal death (thereby justifying its being called the Gift of Men). Is this only because it is the only way for Arwen to be with Aragorn after his death (because they would be separated if she sailed to the Uttermost West), or is the value in the death/progression itself? What exactly does happen to Men who die? They go to the halls of waiting, and then what? And which fate is preferable? I just asked a hella lot of questions, but I'd love to hear everyone's input.

[Galadriel55]

Welcome to the Downs, sunrabbit! You ask some good questions.

Firstly, let's distinguish between the fate of Elves and Men. When Elves die, their spirits go to the Halls of Waiting, aka the Halls of Mandos, in the Uttermost West. Some Elves, after a certain time, are allowed to reincarnate, if they so choose. Others, like Feanor, are not allowed. It depends on what the Elf does in his/her lifetime. Whatever the options, though, the spirits of the Elves are bound to the world. They do not leave it.

Men do not go to the Halls of Mandos, and they are not bound to the world. When they die, their spirits leave it. I think they go to be with Iluvatar (the All-father that created the world), and I believe there is a legend that after the Middle-Earth equivalent of the end of the world the Men will participate in making the new world... Death was given to Men as a Gift from Iluvatar, but Morgoth put fear in their minds and turned it into a Doom.

Here is what Iluvatar says about Elves and Men in The Silmarillion, Of THe Beginning of Days:

"But the Quendi shall be the fairest of al earthly creatures, and they shall have and shall conceive and bring forth more beauty than all my Children; and they shall have the greater bliss in this world. But to the Atani [Men] I will give a new gift." Therefore he willed it that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond theMusic of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world flufilled unto the last and smallest.

But Iluvatar knew that Men, being set amid the turmoils of the powers of the world, would stray often,and would not use their gifts in harmony...

Most of this information is from The Silmarillion. Have you read it?

[sunrabbit]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Welcome to the Downs, sunrabbit! You ask some good questions.

Firstly, let's distinguish between the fate of Elves and Men. When Elves die, their spirits go to the Halls of Waiting, aka the Halls of Mandos, in the Uttermost West. Some Elves, after a certain time, are allowed to reincarnate, if they so choose. Others, like Feanor, are not allowed. It depends on what the Elf does in his/her lifetime. Whatever the options, though, the spirits of the Elves are bound to the world. They do not leave it.

Men do not go to the Halls of Mandos, and they are not bound to the world. When they die, their spirits leave it. I think they go to be with Iluvatar (the All-father that created the world), and I believe there is a legend that after the Middle-Earth equivalent of the end of the world the Men will participate in making the new world... Death was given to Men as a Gift from Iluvatar, but Morgoth put fear in their minds and turned it into a Doom.

Here is what Iluvatar says about Elves and Men in The Silmarillion, Of THe Beginning of Days:



Most of this information is from The Silmarillion. Have you read it?

I have read it, but only once, and too long ago. I should have just read it again, eh? Thank you for summing it up so nicely. That makes a lot of sense. I suppose I had forgotten all that, because I was trying to figure out what about being a Man could possibly be better than being Elfkind. The elves are all gorgeous and young and immortal and wise and all that. But Men have something else--this "gift"--it is a freedom from the world. Scary, I suppose, when you are in the world, because it is unknown. But once you have passed beyond, it could open up so many possibilities. I trust Aragorn and Arwen would be able to build worlds together and be quite happy.

[Findegil]

Just to nit pick a bit: Spirits of Men go to the halls of Mandos, before they leave the world, and some are allowed to wait thier for some time (see the exsample of Beren).

And I would like to add a bit to the quotation of Galadriel, from the same chapter just one paragraph further down:

It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a short space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves know not. Whereas the Elves remain until the end of days, and their love of the Earth and all the world is more single and more poignant therefore, and as the years lengthen ever more sorrowful. For the Elves die not till tile world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief (and to both these seeming deaths they are subject); neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return. But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy. But Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, and confounded it with darkness, and brought forth evil out of good, and fear out of hope. Yet of old the Valar declared to the Elves in Valinor that Men shall join in the Second Music of the Ainur; whereas Ilúvatar has not revealed what he purposes for the Elves after the World's end, and Melkor has not discovered it.

So the fate of Men is certain as long as you trusted in what the Elves told you about their own learinings from the Valar. In contarst the fate of the Elves is unknown at least in the longrun and nneeded 'estel' which is trust in the goodness of Ilúvatar much more than Men.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Just to nit pick a bit: Spirits of Men go to the halls of Mandos, before they leave the world, and some are allowed to wait thier for some time (see the exsample of Beren).

Nit pick appreciated.

Originally Posted by Findegil

And I would like to add a bit to the quotation of Galadriel, from the same chapter just one paragraph further down:So the fate of Men is certain as long as you trusted in what the Elves told you about their own learinings from the Valar. In contarst the fate of the Elves is unknown at least in the longrun and nneeded 'estel' which is trust in the goodness of Ilúvatar much more than Men.

Yes. But I would say that the majority of Men did not know about those learnings, and that many did not believe. And even if they do believe in their minds, it's not a simple thing just to trust that reasoning with one's heart. So Men's fate is certain - for the Valar and those Elves who talked to them,and some very faithful Men. But to most Men the fate of the Elves probably seems much more certain, because the "long run" for Men is much shorter than that of Elves...

[Findegil]

But to most Men the fate of the Elves probably seems much more certain, because the "long run" for Men is much shorter than that of Elves...

True enough from the perspectiv of shortliving Men, but quite diffrent if looked from the elvish perspectiv. In the "Athrabeth Finrod a Andreth" the point is nicely discussed between the two.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Lollipop010900]

I am still really confused about this whole topic but my take on it is that Arwen gave up her immortality but not her 'elvishness' eg. physical appearance and don't forget the ears! She died because she knew it was her time to die. She didn't want to live without Aragorn so even if she had been immortal she still would have died. I am pretty sure that the two ways elves can die are by murder or grief. I think Arwen would have died by the latter even if she was not mortal

[Findegil]

Posted by Lollipop010900:

I am pretty sure that the two ways elves can die are by murder or grief. I think Arwen would have died by the latter even if she was not mortal.

This might be true, but Aragorn was prety sure that this would make a big difference (see below). Anyway Arwen made clear that the decision was no longer hers: Sche had choosen long before and their was for her no way to revoke that choise. It is not the lack of a ship that prevented her from going to Aman but no Elve would be allowed to take her onto such a journey.

The difference between such as death of an Elve as you discribe it and the death of a mortal (as Arwen had become) is that of the fate after the fea (or soul) departed from the body:
For both Men and Elves the first yourney would lead to the halls of Mandos. We know that Elves could refuse the sumon of Mandos, and would then be doomed to exist on to the end of Arda as body less ghosts. We know also that Men could do the same with help from mightier beings at least temporary (e.g. the Nazgûl, Gandalf's discription of the final result of the wound by the Morgul-knive, the dead men of Dunharrow). [I personaly doubt fery much that Men could refuse by their own or at leats they could only refuse the first part of the journey and would then be forced to the second part with out preparation.]
In the Halls of Mandos the differences start:
Elves would stay their until Mandos found them fit for a reincarnation, or if the Elve disiered it or Mandos judge him or her in that way, they would stay there until the end of Arda. The reincarnation was done by the Valar by recreating the body of which each fea had a kind of imprinted memory that the Valar could read. Since re-embodyment was done in Valinor only a few reincarnated Elves were ever seen in Middle-Earth (e.g. Glorfindel). What fate waited for the Elves at the End of the world was unknown (even to the Valar).
Men would only stay in the Halls of Mandos for a short time [probably the lenght of that time was again judged by Mandos]. Then the fea of Men would journey on beyond the circles of the world into the presence of Ilúvatar. At the end of the world Men would take part in the second music of the Ainur.

Respectfuly
Findegil