The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum


Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page

Go Back   The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum > Middle-Earth Discussions > The Books
User Name
Password
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-29-2002, 02:49 PM   #1
Maikacairien
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 21
Maikacairien has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Maikacairien
Shield What happened to Sam?

At the end of LotR I kept on wonder ing what happened to Sam. Are there any other books Tolkien wrote about him? I don't really think there are but I'm still wondering. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
__________________
fare thee well, though whether you fare well or ill is entirely up to you!
Maikacairien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 03:01 PM   #2
Ravenna
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: witney, oxfordshire
Posts: 70
Ravenna has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

In the appendices at the end you will find that Sam had lots of children, became mayor of the Shire (several times), passed the Red Book on to his daughter Elanor, and then finally, after the death of his beloved Rose, passed over the sea to Valinor, the last of the Ringbearers to do so.
Ravenna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 03:13 PM   #3
Galorme
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: London
Posts: 337
Galorme has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

And that is, what they say, a rap. Or is it?

Tolkein once said that when he said that the Ringbearers passed into the west he meant it to be ambigous whether they became immortal, as did the elves, or whether it merely meant they died and found peace. But it is told by the elves in the Akallabéth that if mortals went to Valinor they would die out, much like "a moth that flies too close to the flame". So what actually happened to all the Ringbearers (and Gimli, though one would assume that Aule would grant them longer life as he created them). Did they live forever in the bliss of Valinor as did Huor (though he actually became an Elf), perhaps the Ringbeares, not belonging to the age of the men became 4 foot elves themselves? Or did they die out like the metaphorical moth too soon in the bliss of Eldamar?
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!
Galorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 03:19 PM   #4
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

He died.
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 03:28 PM   #5
Orofacion of the Vanyar
Wight
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Clayton, NC
Posts: 102
Orofacion of the Vanyar has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Orofacion of the Vanyar
Thumbs up

Quote:
Did they live forever in the bliss of Valinor as did Huor...
That's Tuor, not his dad Huor.

What happens to the Ringbearers is completely up to your imagination. It is said that if mortals enter into Aman, they will die like moths blah blah blah. But then again, has any mortal ever made it to Aman and recounted it to anyone on Middle Earth? No. So really, no one knows for sure.

I like this fact. It leaves the question not only open for debate, which I'm sure will occur after I post this, but it leaves a certain mystery to Tolkien's work. If you know everything that happens within the realm of Arda, what fun will it be anymore. It's that same thinking that kept Tolkien from publishing an official "Silmarillion" by his own hand. Christopher did so, but the Professor was a bit more weary.

I read somewhere that Tolkien believed that the magic behind the LotR was the depth that was there, the unseen but obvious history that was at the foundation of the storyline. Tolkien said that once this history was revealed, the magic would fade slightly.

Ok I'm ranting alot so I will stop.

But basically to answer your question, it's up to you.
Orofacion of the Vanyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 03:36 PM   #6
Galorme
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: London
Posts: 337
Galorme has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

That was somewhat blunt and without explination. Care to elaberate on why he died? He could have lived on, it is said that the sailors who were trapped in Valinor will be trapped until the world is made anow, meaning they could live on forever. I am not taking sides on this one, as much as i would like to think they lived on i have only one piece of evidence for living and one for dying.
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!
Galorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 03:49 PM   #7
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
Care to elaberate on why he died?
I think it might have something to do with him being mortal. Plus, Tolkien said so. In Letters.
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 04:02 PM   #8
Galorme
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: London
Posts: 337
Galorme has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

As far as i remember in the leters he said that he had left it deliberatly ambigous whether he died or went to valinor for healing. If i am wrong correct me (a quote would be nice i dont have the book with me like all my books it was borrowed).

Quote:
I think it might have something to do with him being mortal.
There is no need to be offensive or condinsending, though re-reading my post it did seem a little confruntational. If so i'm sorry i did not mean it that way.
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!
Galorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 04:44 PM   #9
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the
right to confer 'immortality' upon them. Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own
desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing. -- Letter 325
It was not my intention to be either offensive or condinsending, nor did your post seem the least bit confruntational. I like to use as few words as possible, if I can. Terse, succinct, concise.
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 04:53 PM   #10
Manwe Sulimo
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor
Posts: 553
Manwe Sulimo has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Manwe Sulimo
Silmaril

Now I'm confused. The Valar couldn't 'confer immortality', even if Sauron could? Hmmm. (Stupid goodie-two-shoes.)
__________________
"Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."
Manwe Sulimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 05:25 PM   #11
Maédhros
The Kinslayer
 
Maédhros's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Formenos
Posts: 658
Maédhros has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via MSN to Maédhros
Question

Quote:
Now I'm confused. The Valar couldn't 'confer immortality', even if Sauron could? Hmmm.
Sauron could confer immortality, care to elaborate on that?
__________________
"Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."
Maédhros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 05:29 PM   #12
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Sauron could trap a spirit in a body, with mixed results.
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 06:12 PM   #13
Rose Cotton
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: A place worse then Mordor........School!
Posts: 1,075
Rose Cotton has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Well it's not so bad. Even if they did die alot of religions will tell you they went onto mortal heaven. And from what I know it's a pritty nice place.
__________________
"There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin
"The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)
Rose Cotton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 06:40 PM   #14
Maikacairien
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 21
Maikacairien has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Maikacairien
Shield

Thanks! Thats very helpful. I like the idea of him living forever! And Frodo and Bilbo, of course! I think that they would've lived on and on because they just sortof had to go. That makes no sense. Oh-well. Now I'm starting to babble so I'll finish this post. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
__________________
fare thee well, though whether you fare well or ill is entirely up to you!
Maikacairien is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 07:45 PM   #15
Susan Delgado
The Perished Flame
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: behind my eyes
Posts: 1,096
Susan Delgado has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Susan Delgado Send a message via AIM to Susan Delgado
The Eye

My understanding is that all the mortals who went to Tol Eresea (since they could not go to Valinor) would die, but they could choose the time and circumstances.
__________________
"Man as a whole, Man pitted against the universe, have we seen him at all 'til we see that he is like a hero in a fairy tale?"
Susan Delgado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 10:49 PM   #16
Orofacion of the Vanyar
Wight
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Clayton, NC
Posts: 102
Orofacion of the Vanyar has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Orofacion of the Vanyar
Thumbs up

Quote:
Their sojourn was a 'purgatory', but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own
desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.
You actually just refutted yourself with that quote. It says they had the choice, "die at their own desire and of free will".
Orofacion of the Vanyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2002, 10:59 PM   #17
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Why does everyone always think that Tolkien was lying to them when he said stuff? Did you skip over the part that says "they would eventually pass away"?
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2002, 11:00 AM   #18
Galorme
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: London
Posts: 337
Galorme has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

I think that the reason that they would die would not be because they were forced to, and that they could carry on living if they felt like it, but they would not, since, being mortal, they would tire of the world and give up their life of their own free will. This is not quite the same as men, as they become weary, but some, fearing death can choose not to give up life, but eventually death will take them.

It is said (somewhere [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) that even the Valar will become weary of the world and envy the gifts of men. To be hounist I am very happy with Burrahobbit's (well Tolkien') answer, as it means that the Ringbearers gained the bliss and long life of the elves without loosing the Gift of Eru (death). I supose this is how Tolkein rewarded them for all the nasty things he put them through.

Burrahobbit I like to put lots of examples and descriptions in my posts, as they are the kind of posts I like to read. Every man to their own.
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!
Galorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2002, 11:20 AM   #19
Arathiriel
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The Blessed Realm
Posts: 284
Arathiriel has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Arathiriel
Tolkien

I personally do not know believe that neither Bilbo, Frodo, or Sam lived on forever even though they entered the Blessed Realm with the Elves...

Why do I think this?

Well just because they were allowed to live in Valinor were as no other mortals were allowed, I don't believe it meant that their mortality was taken away and immortality given to them by anyone.

This was granted, not even the Valar as I believe that only Eru could take away their mortality and give them the immortality He had granted to the Elves from the creation of Arda.

However as much as I don't think they lived on forever, I DO believe that Frodo and Sam DID see one another again! I REFUSE to believe that the last time they saw one another was at the Grey Havens!

I believe they were reunited and spent many years together in the Blessed Realm before they passed away....

[ July 30, 2002: Message edited by: Arathiriel ]
__________________
'I love him. He's like that, and sometimes it shines through, somehow. But I love him, whether or no.' - Samwise Gamgee
Arathiriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-2002, 11:42 AM   #20
burrahobbit
Hidden Spirit
 
burrahobbit's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,424
burrahobbit has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
I think that the reason that they would die would not be because they were forced to, and that they could carry on living if they felt like it, but they would not, since, being mortal, they would tire of the world and give up their life of their own free will. This is not quite the same as men, as they become weary, but some, fearing death can choose not to give up life, but eventually death will take them.
This is right and wrong at the same time. Hobbits are men, and as such they die no matter what. I'm sure they would get world-weary and die peacefully, but that isn't the point. If they didn't go peacefully they would be taken anyway.

Quote:
long life
Not really. At least, not any longer than somebody like Aragorn. I really doubt that they lived more than a handful of years.
__________________
What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?
burrahobbit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-2002, 03:27 PM   #21
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Letter No. 154:
Quote:
But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.
I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their 'kind' cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will 'die' – of free will, and leave the world.
More plainly, Letter No. 246
Quote:
'Alas! there are some wounds that cannot be wholly cured', said Gandalf (III 268) – not in Middle-earth. Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him – if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to 'pass away': no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unmarred', the Earth unspoiled by evil.
There is no reason to believe that Sam, Bilbo, or Gimli would suffer a different fate.

[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2002, 01:29 AM   #22
Brionna
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Chico, CA
Posts: 13
Brionna has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

So here's a question from a less versed LoTR fan. Do hobbits (or Men of ME for that matter) believe in an after-life? I know right now we're debating on whether the Ringbearers actually passed or not, but let's say they did. Was there something after the mortal world? I think someone may have touched on it, but I'm just wondering if this is something discussed by Tolkien.
Brionna is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2002, 05:36 AM   #23
Galorme
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: London
Posts: 337
Galorme has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Well all that is known about the afterlike (providing the spirit was allowed to leave Ea) was that after the world was broken and made anew all of Fathers and Children of Men would sing in the Second Music of the Ainur. Also it is told that Túrin will come back from the dead to slay Morgoth for revenge. Apart from that none know where Men go, except Eru, Mandos and Manwe.
__________________
Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë! The day has come! Behold people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!
Galorme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2002, 08:28 AM   #24
galadriel'smaiden
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Vilnius
Posts: 73
galadriel'smaiden has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to galadriel'smaiden
Tolkien

Well, I think Sam probably did eventually die, but if you think about it, would you want to go on forever? I like to think he simply went to sleep and did'nt wake up after going to the grey havens
__________________
"For God's sake Ed, just take the stupid call!" said Justin.
"Hello, Mum, I'm on stage," said Ed casually.
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGGGGH!" screamed Justin.
galadriel'smaiden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2002, 09:25 AM   #25
Matthew2754
Pile O'Bones
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Michigan
Posts: 22
Matthew2754 has just left Hobbiton.
Tolkien

Thirteen kids! Poor Rosie.
Matthew2754 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2002, 09:34 AM   #26
Taure Leafsilver
Wight
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: The Shire,Alabama
Posts: 131
Taure Leafsilver has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Taure Leafsilver
Tolkien

I'm with Maikacairien! What is not written is up to the reader! well that's my phiosiphy.(sp?)
__________________
Pippin Lives!
Taure Leafsilver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2002, 11:29 AM   #27
OjosVerdes
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

Quote:
You actually just refutted yourself with that quote. It says they had the choice, "die at their own desire and of free will".
Orofacion: I may be wrong about this, but I always took that to mean that, once they reached Aman (or Tol Eressëa, if you prefer), they were given the privilege of the Numenoreans and their descendants, to choose the time of their death. If they refused to make a choice, as their span of time drew to a close, they would, as Aragorn said in App. A, "..wither and fall..".

Anyway, that's my perspective.

Máme
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-10-2002, 07:41 AM   #28
alkquareiel02
Animated Skeleton
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: england
Posts: 31
alkquareiel02 has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Sam went to the Gray Havens and left but who knows what happened to Sam after that sad really [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
alkquareiel02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2003, 05:59 PM   #29
Samwise Gamgee
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 52
Samwise Gamgee has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via ICQ to Samwise Gamgee Send a message via AIM to Samwise Gamgee
Sting

They must have died - mortality was a gift, just as immortality. But it is fun to make up beautiful and/or melodramatic stories about their reunion
__________________
"Good bye, master, my dear! Forgive your Sam. He'll come back to this spot when the job's done - if he manages it." -TTT
Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point - Lewis
Samwise Gamgee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2003, 06:24 PM   #30
Morwen Tindomerel
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden
Posts: 187
Morwen Tindomerel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

In 'Morgoth's Ring' (v. X of HoME) Tolkien specifically states that the Ringbearers went to Tol Eressea, within sight of Aman, not to to Aman itself. And that this grace was granted to them so that they might be healed of the hurts the Ring had inflicted upon their spirits and in due course give up their lives of their own free will, in a spirit of hope and desire for Him who is beyond the Circles of the World. Tolkien goes on to observe that Aragorn achieved this state of grace without the special aid given to the Ringbearers.

Frankly I cannot imagine Sam wanting to be seperated from his Rosie and his children for all the remaining Ages of the World, and doubtless Frodo and Bilbo too have people they'd like to see again, (including their parents and old Friends like Aragorn, Boromir or Bard the Bowman).

And to put it bluntly; life in Eressea and Aman must be godawful boring and no Mortal could stand it forever. Eru only knows how Tuor and Earendil and Elwing are coping. And poor Elrond!

[ June 11, 2003: Message edited by: Morwen Tindomerel ]
Morwen Tindomerel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2003, 08:32 AM   #31
peonydeepdelver
Shade of Carn Dûm
 
peonydeepdelver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Alas, I hail from Massachusetts
Posts: 256
peonydeepdelver has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to peonydeepdelver
Sting

Quote:
I like this fact. It leaves the question not only open for debate, which I'm sure will occur after I post this, but it leaves a certain mystery to Tolkien's work.
I like this fact too, Orofacion. It also lets readers be able to believe and imagine what they want that happened to Sam and the other Ringbearers (and Gimli). I like how Tolkien doesn't always give information straight out, so you can think what you want.
__________________
"Nazgul, Nazgul! You speak of what is deep beyond the reach of your muddy dreams, Ugluk! Nazgul! Ah! All that they make out! One day you'll wish that you had not said that. Ape! You ought to know that they're the apple of the Great Eye." ~Grishnakh
peonydeepdelver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2003, 10:11 AM   #32
Legolas
A Northern Soul
 
Legolas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Valinor
Posts: 1,847
Legolas has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
I'm with Maikacairien! What is not written is up to the reader! well that's my philosophy [sic].
Maybe so. This, however, was something Tolkien wrote about a number of times. Sam, Frodo, Bilo, and Gimli died in Aman.
__________________
...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.
Legolas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-15-2003, 07:33 PM   #33
Caranrûniel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Ring

If Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli die in Aman, I wonder what happens to them after that. Does anyone have a clue?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2003, 12:02 AM   #34
QuickSlash
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Not here.
Posts: 121
QuickSlash has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to QuickSlash Send a message via Yahoo to QuickSlash
Sting

Quote:
If Frodo, Bilbo, Sam and Gimli die in Aman, I wonder what happens to them after that. Does anyone have a clue?
Tolkein never said what happened to mortals once they die, because we don't know what happens to us when we die here. He left us to speculate, as 'most everyone does.
__________________
We're here and now, but will we ever be again? / 'Cause I have found / All that shimmers in this world is sure to fade, away, again. -Shimmer, Fuel
QuickSlash is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2003, 03:34 AM   #35
Afrodal Fenyar
Haunting Spirit
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Finland
Posts: 94
Afrodal Fenyar has just left Hobbiton.
Sting

Quote:
He died.
Man that burrahobbit is funny!

(well, maybe my comment is a bit late :P)
__________________
"Out of doubt, out of dark to the day's rising I came singing in the sun, sword unsheathing. To hope's end I rode and to heart's breaking: Now for wrath, now for ruin and a red nightfall!"

~Eomer
Afrodal Fenyar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2003, 09:01 AM   #36
Morwen Tindomerel
Wight
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Minas Anor or Annuminas the Golden
Posts: 187
Morwen Tindomerel has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

The souls of Men and Hobbits, after a stay in their own halls of waiting, pass beyond the Circles of the World to High Heaven and the presence of Eru. What that's like is anybody's guess.

Dwarves, according to their own beliefs, are gathered to yet other halls presided over by Aule rather than Mandos and there learn and practice further skills in craft while they await the End. Probably a pleasant enough fate by Dwarvish standards.
Morwen Tindomerel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2003, 07:06 AM   #37
Chris
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

Does anyone know if Merry, Pippin, Aragorn, and Boromir ever meet up with Sam, Bilbo, and Frodo? After they leave Aman and go to another place, do all dead mortals eventually meet up somewhere?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2003, 07:32 AM   #38
Finwe
Deathless Sun
 
Finwe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos
Posts: 2,609
Finwe has just left Hobbiton.
Send a message via AIM to Finwe
Sting

In the Akallabeth, the Elves or the Valar say to the Numenoreans that it is not the land that makes the people holy, it is the people that make the lands holy. It was the Elves who were immortal, not the land that made them so. The Numenoreans thought that if you were a mortal living in Aman, you would automatically become immortal (leading to one of the stupidest acts in Middle-earth's history).
I don't think that Frodo, Sam, Bilbo, and Gimli would have become immortal. Only Eru could have granted that, and I don't think he would have chosen to. They probably all passed away peacefully, with all their friends beside them.
After death, they probably went to the Timeless Halls where all the other spirits of Dead Men awaited. They probably met Merry, Pippin, Aragorn, and Boromir again there.
__________________
But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.
Finwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2003, 07:41 AM   #39
Chris
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Sting

Ah, thank you. That has bothered me for some time. I could never stand the fact that Frodo and Sam would never again see their beloved friends. I asked a teacher about it and that is what she told me. You have put my mind at rest.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2003, 08:30 AM   #40
greyhavener
Wight
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: austin
Posts: 169
greyhavener has just left Hobbiton.
Silmaril

I think there are several references in LOTR about various individuals who have died and gone to the "halls of their fathers" or something along those lines. I'm too lazy to look them up.

It's pretty clear motal beings can't stay in the eternal elven realm forever, however there does seem to be an implication their souls or personalities or whatever dwell eternally somewhere in the presence of Ea. Why would it be necessary to heal their souls if they weren't going to exist eternally somewhere?

"Leaf by Niggle" is a short story that gives a pretty good picture of Tolkien's views on purgatory and its purposes for those interested in pursuing that perspective.

[ June 24, 2003: Message edited by: greyhavener ]
__________________
Do justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
greyhavener is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:51 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.