Sauron and Saruman?

[Theoric Windcaller]

I have often wondered, if Saruman's army won over Helm's Deep, would Sauron and Saruman be faithful allies?

I mean, taking to proportion Gandalf's quote in TFotR, "There is only one lord of the Ring, and he does not share power." I am sure that sooner or later, one of the two would get power happy and turn against each but do you think that the union between the two towers would've have lasdted longer if the evnts in LotR went differently?

[tinewelt]

I believe there is no way Saruman could have contended with Sauron as an enemy, without the ring. Even if he would have won hel
ms deep , the ring was already out of reach. I believe he would have had no choice but to be an "ally" (very high slave, probably with control of Rohan and all lands surrounding).

~Namarie~

[Legolas]

Saruman and Sauron were looking to one another to help eliminate the threat of opposition from elves, dwarves, and men. After those threats were eliminated, they would faced off undoubtedly. Each wanted to rule the world.

[MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie]

I think that first Saruman would have had his army, or what was left of it, take care of the problems of the ents at Isenguard. I don't have my book with me at the moment so correct me if I'm wrong, but by the time his army would get back, Isengaurd would be in ruins (the part that Saruman built to spawn orcs and any other addons). So, he couldn't start repairing his army and he couldn't try rebuiling his machines- it would take too long.

With that said, I think he would do one of two things. He might have felt cocky and decided to take on Sauron, or he would think strategically and keep his alliance with Sauron and attack Minas Tirith.

But it depends on how big his army is. If it was too small, he probably would not want to go against Sauron. The free peoples would not likely trust him. His best choice would probably be to wage war against Minas Tirith with Sauron. After all, he wanted the ring, and Saruman probably assumes it's at Minas Tirith, or will be at least.

But if his army is strong enough, he might go against Sauron. How? I don't know really, but it would be either directly, or with Minas Tirith. And he would probably have to attack Mordor's forces without an official alliance from Minas Tirith. Denethor would not trust Saruman after he destroyed Rohan and especially if he knew that it was Saruman's forces who killed Boromir. So, by attacking Mordor's forces, like that, it might work out since they are proving that they are at least against Sauron.

I could carry this on for a long time, but I'm getting confused, so that's it.

[Phrim]

Personally, I think that Saruman never had any intention of holding faith with Sauron, he just used his purported "alliance" to aid him in obtaining the One Ring for himself. It was basically a stall tactic--if Sauron thought that Saruman was faithfully handling the affairs in the region, Sauron would largely stay out of the White Wizard's affairs and leave his search unhindered. Sauron, of course, was no dummy, but even if Saruman found and claimed the One for himself, the Dark Lord believed (and probably rightfully so) that he could crush him regardless. In Sauron's mind, Gandalf was the much larger threat.

Which brings us back to Saruman's attack on Rohan. Saruman believed that the One Ring was definitely somewhere in the region. All signs point to this being true: Ugluk and company captured two hobbits near the Anduin (and Saruman knew a Hobbit held the Ring), the entire group of Uruk-Hai mysteriously disappeared, and Gandalf and Aragorn are found to be meddling in Rohan's affairs. Logic would dictate that Saruman's nemesis Gandalf had recovered the hobbits and the Ring. Seeing his plans being so beautifully spoiled, his only option was to launch an overwhelming attack against Gandalf in a hope to regain control of the Ring. That was his only purpose in striking out at Rohan.

So what next? Saruman had no idea that Gandalf and his companions did not have the One Ring. It wasn't even a contingency that he might've planned for. I'm not sure he would have believed it in the face of all evidence. If he had won at Helm's Deep, he probably would have spent the ensuing time trying to track down on how the One Ring eluded him once again. As for his alliance with Sauron, he would maintain faith as long as it would aid in his search for the Ring, and not a minute more.

[Morgoth the Great]

"Saruman is a treacherous worm, but the eye is on him"-Grishnakh. please excuse anything incorrect in this sentance, my copy of LOTR's is at my friends house [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] anyways, the point is, Sauron misstrusted Saruman incredibly, and as much as i hate to refer to the films, they do make a good point. Sauron is simply "using" Saruman to do his dirty work until he can regain strength. As has already been stated here, Saruman simply wouldnt have the strength to attack Mordor. A good example of this is the sheer size of the enemies at the black gate, towards the end of Return of the King. Sauron had a far superior army, sheerly in numbers, and also his faithfull Nazgul, induced such fear into the hearts of even their own Servants, that the Uruk-Hai would of found them extremely formidable. Saruman would of helped Sauron to defeat Gondor, and also, The Rohan, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Theoden, Eomer and of Course the influencial Eowyn would never of turned up to aid Gondor. Faramir would of perished, Theoden with him, Gondor falls. Then Sauron turns to Saruman, and simply destroys him easily, as Aragorn doesn't withdraw his gaze using the Palantir, and he catches Frodo(probably), returning the Ring of Power to him. He is then almost invicible, and even Isengard can't withstand Sauron. this is just my opinion on it, but i feel it substancial evdience.

[lathspell]

Hey people (back to prove that I'm still dead),

The alliance between the two towers, if you can call it an alliance, was certain to be broken whenever the Ring would show up. The reason that both parties worked for the Alliance was probably this:
- Saruman knew he was no match against Sauron without having the Ring and therefore wanted Sauron to believe that he was no foe.
- Sauron on the other hand was very content with him dealing with Rohan, and he was able to keep a close eye on Saruman using the Palantiri. I guess he found Saruman a very useful slave.

So, both had the intention of getting the Ring for themselves and Ruling over all others.

I do not agree, Phrim, with all that you said. For example: you say that Saruman 'had no idea that the Ring was not with Gandalf and company'. Saruman, I think, knew well enough the number and race of the members of the Fellowship. That means also that he knew that the Fellowship contained 4 Hobbits instead of two, and that therefore the Ring might be elsewhere. The reason for his assault on Rohan nevertheless is about the Ring for the chance that the Ring was not with Gandalf was very small or so you would think.
Therefore I guess he risked the chance of losing many of his troops, for he thought there was a great chance that he got the Ring and with Minas Tirith still in East as boundary between him and Sauron he would have enough time of building a greater army and Rule the Ring. Of course, things went all wrong woth Gandalf being send back with more power, rescuing Theoden and saving the Rohirrim from disaster at Helm's Deep.

I'm a bit confused about another thing, though. The part where Pippin looks into the Palantir and 'converses' with the Dark Lord, Sauron says: '... This dainty is not for him to take. I will send for it at once...'
Now, if Sauron believed that this was the Hobbit, the one with the Ring, than he also believed that Saruman could not overthrow him even with the Ring. Yet Gandalf says: 'His greatest fear is that a mighty one of us stands up wielding the Ring.' The 'His' is, no doubt, Sauron. And Saruman was considered mightiest of the Istari, so these two statements seem to contradict each other. Any other opinions on the matter?

greetings,
lathspell

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Nice little point there lathspell. I think this can be explained like so.

Even if Sauron did fear Saruman + Ring, which I think he did, he would still have to 'send for it' as he says. After all, what else is he going to do?

Quite a rough explanation I know. Someone else can probably do a lot better!

One thing I'd like to ask. What on Middle Earth gave Saruman the idea that he could defeat Sauron if he had the Ring? I know he was consumed by greed and all that, but surely he should have seen that an Isengard based assault on Mordor was utterly hopeless?

[Morgoth the Great]

Saruman was becoming dillusional in his folly. this is the simplest and i think the most acurate description. He simply didnt think that anything could withstand the power of Isengard, and his army was growing. He was making things, whereas Mordor was simply calling "reinforcments" as they are. Saruman had been delaying Sauron for quite a while, as he did know where the Shire was, yet refused to divolge to the Nazgul where it was. He was getting a great army, and the sheer power he now controlled made him dillusional.

[lathspell]

Thank you Eomer,
your explanations is pointing out that the point can be explained otherwise, yet I'm not convinced. The style and words chosen to say this where, in my believe, like one who believes that he talks to a powerles slave.

As for your question,

Saruman knew he could overthrow Sauron with the Ring, and he could. The people in M-e with the greatest powers: Galadriel, Gandalf, Saruman, Elrond etc..

A few points from the book:
- Gandalf to Frodo, if he is asked to keep the Ring: 'No! Do not give it to me, do not tempt me, I dare not keep this Ring.' He knew he would be ensnared and become the Dark Lord himself.

- Galadriel after Frodo offered the Ring to here: 'Instead of a Dark Lord you would set up a Dark Queen, stronger than the foundations of the World.

Saruman would fit into the row as well, and therefore be powerful enough to overthrow Sauron, if he had the Ring.

greetings,
lathspell

[FingolfintheBold]

Another thing: Saruman and Sauron distrusted
each other to the core. Sauron feared what Saruman could do if he aquired the Ring and learned to master it, hence His speed in going to retrieve it. And Saruman knew well the history of Sauron and all His treachery, and wouldnt have trusted Sauron as far as he could throw him, as the saying goes.

But for all the hatred and fear bettween them, Saruman also recognized Sauron's great power, and tried to emulate it. In Gandalf's words, he made a slave's flattery, a cheap model of the greatness of Sauron, for that was the power Saruman himself wanted above all to posess.

I cannot see Saruman, even in his pride, being foolish enough to face Sauron in open war. He would have bidded his time, climbed up the ranks, gradually gain loyalty and then try to usurpe Sauron's thrown, though all attempts would ultimatley be folly if Sauron held the ring.

[Phrim]

Two issues here. First, I still don't think Saruman had the slighest clue that the Ring wasn't in Rohan. Sure, he may have known that there were only two hobbits where there once were four. However, no one suspected that the other two had split off to enter Mordor, not even the Eye could see that. The logical deduction that would be that either the missing Hobbits had died like Boromir, or had abandoned the quest. With the "major" players in the Fellowship in Rohan, it is obvious that the Ring would be there as well.

As far as Sauron's fear, I doubt he had any regard for Saruman (or Galadriel, for that matter), with or without the Ring. This is fairly evident with the "This dainty..." quote. Sauron expected Saruman to challenge him for mastery of the Ring, it was something he had planned for, and probably had all sorts of contingencies mapped out for if that came to be. Saruman may have thought he was pulling the wool over Sauron's eyes (or eye, heh), but he was not. Sauron was ready for him, and he would not lose that battle.

I think Sauron's primary fear was Gandalf. Gandalf's motives, being completely pure, were completely unfathomable to the Dark Lord, and he could neither control nor predict what the wizard would do.

And remember that the One Ring was an instrument of deception; if a character claims he could vanquish Sauron by wielding it, that doesn't mean the claim has any merit. Heck, even Frodo tries to declare himself the Dark Lord at the end of RotK, I don't think any of us could put much stock in that claim.

[Socialist]

Tolkien said in one of the letters, I believe, that the only one who could wield the Ring was Gandalf. The others might have thought they could, but in reality, they couldn't.

[the real findorfin]

As I seem to remember (and I seem to recall this might be the Mouth of Sauron's own thoughts and not Sauron himself), Sauron's plan was to install the Mouth of Sauron as lord of Eriador from Isengard. I wonder if this was a change in his plan afer he learnt that Saruman had fallen or was it planned from the start, i.e. use Saruman until the war is finished then discard him and install a more trustworthy captain? If this was not the case then I wonder where else he would have installed The Mouth, if Saruman was to hold Isengard still? Just a thought I had.

[samrohan]

"Saruman is a treacherous worm, but the eye is on him"-Grishnakh "

This does not mean that Sauron has any control over Saruman but that he does not trust him and is keeping some surveyance over him.

Also, I never saw the two towers to ever be in some sort of alliance. I have always seen the two troups of Orcs to use each other as a means of backup whilst travelling through Rohan as they are afraid of the horsemen. Afraid being the wrong word as they are not scared but aware of their forces.

Sauron clearly always has the impression he will win over his opponents. Saruman is not a threat but the forces of Gondor is a threat as he believes they have the One ring.

If Saruman had won at Helms deep then he would discover that the ring was not there and would search evermore for it. Sauron and Saruman would not have remained allies as neither of them trusts the other and they both want complete control.Although some of you point out that the nazgul would help Sauron to defeat Saruman, what if Saruman got hold of the nine rings of men and had the one ring then they would be his slaves. So Saruman could send a secret mission to mordor to try to get thoose rings, that would make things quite interesting. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Estanesse]

what if Saruman got hold of the nine rings of men and had the one ring then they would be his slaves.

If Sauruman got hold of the one ring he would also be in control of all the other rings, I think. The nine would no longer obey Sauron with or without being in possession of the nine rings.

[the phantom]

I'm a bit confused about another thing, though. The part where Pippin looks into the Palantir and 'converses' with the Dark Lord, Sauron says: '... This dainty is not for him to take. I will send for it at once...'
Now, if Sauron believed that this was the Hobbit, the one with the Ring, than he also believed that Saruman could not overthrow him even with the Ring. Yet Gandalf says: 'His greatest fear is that a mighty one of us stands up wielding the Ring.' The 'His' is, no doubt, Sauron. And Saruman was considered mightiest of the Istari, so these two statements seem to contradict each other. Any other opinions on the matter?

Lathspell, I believe I might be able to clear this up for you.

I have discussed this before in another thread with some others. We came to the conclusion that Sauron's "fear" was not that he would be destroyed. It never says he's afraid of that. He's afraid of delay.

He's been trying to take over ME for so very long, and now he's so incredibly close. He's so close that he doesn't even need the ring on his hand to complete his conquest.

He's afraid of someone claiming the ring and managing to defeat him militarily, setting him back another few hundred years (or thousand years, depending on who claims the ring).

Do you think he'd have designed the ring to tempt people who were actually capable of using it to destroy him? No. Boromir couldn't use the ring to take Sauron out, and neither could Galadriel or Saruman, and some may disagree with me but I don't think Gandalf could've either. The temptation of the ring was a safety device to make sure that no one can ever willingly destroy it. His ring plot was evil genius at its best. Whoever claims the ring would eventually bend to its will (maybe some would last a hundred years, maybe someone like Saruman a thousand years, maybe Gandalf 10 thousand years). But although Sauron would still win in the end, he'd rather not have to suffer yet another defeat and wait longer to ascend to the throne of ME.

Since the time Sauron first started trying to take over the world (without Morgoth) he has "died" twice. His forces have been severely diminished on more than one occasion, but he keeps coming back while his opposition grows weaker and weaker. He's like a wave crashing upon ME, washing in again and again trying to reach his goal. In LOTR, he had almost reached it. He didn't want to suffer another washout. It's not easy to keep rebuilding a dark empire.

That's what Sauron was afraid of.

Well, I hope that helps.

And remember that the One Ring was an instrument of deception; if a character claims he could vanquish Sauron by wielding it, that doesn't mean the claim has any merit.

I couldn't agree more. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ September 18, 2003: Message edited by: the phantom ]

[lathspell]

Do you think he'd have designed the ring to tempt people who were actually capable of using it to destroy him?

No, of course he wouldn't, but it wasn't his design to loose it in the first place. Sauron never thought that he would loose his Ring when he made it. Those thought were his greatest folly. Thinking that he wouldn't loose it, because no one could withstand his army and he himself together. Another one is that he never thought that the Fellowship would eventually try to get into Mordor, instead of using the Ring. He thought Mordor was closed, yet it wasn't. He thought he'd never loose the Ring, yet he did.

When Boromir offers Elrond at the Council to take the Ring as a weapon and use it against the Dark Lord, Elrond answers:

'Alas, no,' said Elrond. 'We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. Its strenght, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. Consider Saruman. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron's throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear. And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the World it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning. Eevn Sauron was not so. I fear to take the Ring to hide it. I will not take the Ring to wield it.'
'Nor I,' said Gandalf.

Now, in this quote two things seem to be made clear very well. The first is that the Dark Lord could be overthrown if someone else with a great power of his own should take the Ring and wield it. The second is that he says that he (Elrond) won't take it to wield it, meaning that he was indeed strong enough to wield it. Galadriel's quote when she gets the Ring offered freely from Frodo fits into this as well.

'I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer. For many long years I had pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands, and behold! it was brought within my grasp. The evil that was devised long ago works on in many, whether Sauron himself stands or falls. Would not that have been a noble deed to set the credit of his Ring, if I had taken it by force or fear from my quest?
And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair'

the phantom - you said that Sauron was not afraid of being overthrown, but of delay. These quote's say otherwise. Sauron could be overthrown if a great one of M-e should stand up wielding the Ring. Yet the fact that the Ring would corrupt the heart and mind of the one wielding it at that time, is another thing. That would not help Sauron.
Sauron would be overthrown and the one who overthrew him sets himself on his throne in Barad-dur, declaring himself the new Dark Lord. The people of the free realms of which he was an allie, otherwise he could not have wielded the Ring in the first place, will now turn against him and try to destroy him. Folly of course, for he is Ruling with the Ring at that time. So he puts the realms of M-e in a second Darkness. Sauron did not, the free people did not win, and the one on the Dark throne didn't win either for it was not his intention to become Dark Lord. It's the Ring that will win in the End if someone should stand up.

First, I still don't think Saruman had the slighest clue that the Ring wasn't in Rohan. Sure, he may have known that there were only two hobbits where there once were four. However, no one suspected that the other two had split off to enter Mordor, not even the Eye could see that. The logical deduction that would be that either the missing Hobbits had died like Boromir

Oh, it might be. But point is that the other two Hobbits are missing, and therefore it is not sure where the Ring is. Saruman has good wits, the chance that the Ring was there, was of course greater (especially when you think of the rest of the company hunting after them and so on), but Saruman also knew pretty well that the Ring didn't have to be there.

The Hobbits could've died of course, but how and where? The orders of the Orcs were: 'kill all but not the Halflings. They are to be brought back alive and as captured, no spoiling and as quickly as possible'. The Orcs of the Tower of Cirith Ungol seem to have the same orders, so dying seems a bit hard, except by natural ways.

And remember that the One Ring was an instrument of deception; if a character claims he could vanquish Sauron by wielding it, that doesn't mean the claim has any merit.

But it can have merit, depending on the one who claims it. The ones who tried to claim the Ring for their own in LotR are too weak and therefore it had indeed no merit. But the ones who had the power, knew the consequences, and therefore were afraid of the Ring and did not make the claim.

[the phantom]

Its strenght, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own.

Yes, that is true. In other words, it takes someone with great power to harness the power of the ring and with it do their will. But that doesn't mean they can do it forever. Soon, the will of the ring will taint them.

and the one on the Dark throne didn't win either for it was not his intention to become Dark Lord

Exactly what I'm talking about. The ring will taint them.

It's the Ring that will win in the End if someone should stand up.

Precisely. The ring would be master in the end. Sauron wins.

The first is that the Dark Lord could be overthrown if someone else with a great power of his own should take the Ring and wield it.

Yes, I already said that. He would be overthrown in the sense that his armies are wiped out and he possibly has been physically destroyed. But again, it wouldn't last. Sauron is not defeated forever, because the ring is still there, on the hand of the new ruler.

the phantom - you said that Sauron was not afraid of being overthrown, but of delay

In this sense, I was referring to "overthrow" as complete defeat, the ending or near ending of his spirit. He was afraid of being overthrown militarily, a temporary overthrow (a delay).

Yet the fact that the Ring would corrupt the heart and mind of the one wielding it at that time, is another thing. That would not help Sauron.

Sure it would. If a wielder is becoming more corrupt, that means they are succumbing to the ring more and more. That definitely helps Sauron.

The second is that he says that he (Elrond) won't take it to wield it, meaning that he was indeed strong enough to wield it. Galadriel's quote when she gets the Ring offered freely from Frodo fits into this as well.

Why don't you check out this quote from JRRT's letter 246-

It was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power. But this the Great had well considered and had rejected, as is seen in Elrond's words at the Council. Galadriel's rejection of the temptation was founded upon previous thought and resolve.

It had to be founded upon previous thought and resolve because she wasn't thinking clearly once the ring was within her grasp. As Tolkien clearly states, it IS the ring's intention to tempt with power. So I ask again, would the ring do something that would bring complete destruction to its master? I think not.

I'm going to quote you again-

It's the Ring that will win in the End

That is completely true. If it was not destroyed, the ring would've won no matter what course of action was taken.

And Sauron remains as long as the ring lasts, and he's the Lord of the Ring. The power and will of the ring is his.

If the ring endures, it wins. If the ring wins, Sauron wins. Do you get where I'm coming from?

[lathspell]

I see your point, the phantom.

But I still do not agree that Sauron would eventually win. Sauron would be overthrown at the top of his power by the one wielding the Ring.
Of course Sauron wouldn't die, but he would be small again. And while the one wielding the Ring, should sit on his throne, I don't think Sauron would grow great enough to overthrow him again. He would need the Ring for that, and that is the one thing the other has got.
I think you can see it like this: Sauron would definitely not be dead, but he would be something like a lifetime cripple.

The Ring, and only the Ring, would be the winner if it wasn't destroyed.

[the phantom]

Of course Sauron wouldn't die, but he would be small again. And while the one wielding the Ring, should sit on his throne, I don't think Sauron would grow great enough to overthrow him again.

I have a different point of view than you on this issue. I believe that given long enough, the new wielder's tainting and growing subjection to the power of the ring would enable Sauron to swoop in. If someone is subject to the ring, then they would obey its wishes, and its wishes are always to be reunited with its master.

After years upon years of mentle struggle, the new wielder would become a broken slave to the ring, only appearing to be a mighty lord (the mighty lord would actually be the ring, the bearer would be its body). The wielder's own will would be broken. When that point is reached the spirit of Sauron could come to the wielder and retake his ring, and the ring bearer would not have the will to resist the ring's urging.

I don't think Sauron would have to become great again and rule a kingdom to retake the ring.

That's the way I see it, anyway.

[lathspell]

Both possibilities are likely, yet we disagree about the one which is most likely.

After years upon years of mentle struggle, the new wielder would become a broken slave to the ring

A small mind would become enslaved to the Ring and therefore be overpowered by it. But it never says it would do the same to a great mind, I believe (but here I might be wrong). There's quotes that I know about the corruption of heart and mind and therefore becoming the new Dark Lord, but I don't think a mind great enough to control the Ring in the first place would become enslaved to it, except in wielding it for his own desire.
Therefore the wielder would not be yielding to the Ring's will for Sauron, and Sauron would never become great enough to overpower the wielder of the Ring.

[the phantom]

A small mind would become enslaved to the Ring and therefore be overpowered by it. But it never says it would do the same to a great mind

I believe that it's just a matter of time. I don't think anyone can use the ring and not eventual be overcome by it. It might take a long time, several thousand years maybe (just think of how it'd be to fight a battle of wills for that long), but the wielder would be poisoned more and more with the passage of time.

To even claim and use it means the person has already been influenced by the ring, and obviously the influence grows with time since they eventually become the new Dark Lord. And if the influence of the ring grows with time, I think it would eventually move beyond influencing the wielder to greatly influencing the wielder and then to commanding the wielder.

But if that's not how you view the ring's power, then I guess we can't agree on this. I subscribe to the theory (which many don't like) that Sauron's ring plot was perfect. No one could ever destroy him while the ring existed, no one could willingly destroy the ring, and anyone who claimed the ring would eventually bend to the ring's (Sauron's) will. I believe that Eru's divine intervention was the only way for people not named Sauron to win.

[lathspell]

Yes, I think we will not agree on this, but there's one more thing on my mind.

To even claim and use it means the person has already been influenced by the ring

The character who would go and wield the Ring would take it freely and therefore without influence of the Ring. That's, I believe, what makes it a great mind. A small mind will take the Ring because of it's influence and mental pictures of greatness (Samwise the Strong, Lord Smeagol etc.). Yet a great mind, such as the Wise (save Saruman) would take it willingly because of the good deeds to be done with it, overthrowing Sauron. Corruption would come and place them on the Dark Throne. But no more than that, is my belief.

[Phrim]

An interesting theory, phantom. Two things, however.

First off, remember that the Ring was not created with the purpose of corrupting its bearer in mind. Its bearer was supposed to be Sauron himself, and Sauron never envisioned losing the Ring in the first place. I'm of the opinion that the Ring worked for Sauron in the same way it worked for everyone else: it made them crave for dominion and gave them the power to achieve this dominion if they were strong enough to receive it. I really doubt that Sauron purposefully built "failsafes" into the Ring on the off-chance that he might one day lose it. When he created the One Ring, he thought that it would help him take over the world right then and there, there wasn't really a long-view.

Secondly, let's say you're right and someone strong enough does wield the Ring and becomes the new Dark Lord. I agree that without destroying the Ring, the lingering spirit of Sauron would be mighty hard to kill. But how, praytell, does Sauron get the Ring back? It seems to me that giving up the Ring is the one thing that the Ring will never allow you to do (aside from destroying it); the Hobbits were the only ones that had the durability to be able to do this, it seems. No matter how corrupt this new Dark Lord was, I can't see him ever willingly giving up the Ring to Sauron. And as for losing the Ring, Isildur- or Gollum-style, I don't think that would happen to one powerful enough to become a Dark Lord in the first place.

[The Saucepan Man]

Phantom, I agree with you that, to the extent that Elrond and Galadriel suggest that they would be able to master the Ring and supplant Sauron, they were deluding themselves. And I think that holds true for Saruman too. Alas, I do not have the Letters, but I recall that, in a similar discussion, (BW) Legolas posted excerpts from the Letters which (convincingly, as far as I was concerned) suggested that Gandalf was the only one (in Middle-earth) who was Sauron's equal and who would therefore be able to successfully wield the Ring against him. But I seem to recall that those excerpts also suggested that Gandalf would be able to destroy Sauron with the Ring.

As I said, I do not unfortunately have the Letters. Does anyone recognise the passages that I am referring to?

[ September 19, 2003: Message edited by: The Saucepan Man ]

[the phantom]

The character who would go and wield the Ring would take it freely and therefore without influence of the Ring.

Look at the temptation of the ring again. One of the biggest signs that someone was corrupted by the ring was that they desired it. People who managed to avoid its corruption wanted nothing to do with it (Gandalf, Elrond, Faramir). If they had a desire for the ring, then they were giving into the ring's temptation of power, plain and simple.

First off, remember that the Ring was not created with the purpose of corrupting its bearer in mind.

You think this even though Tolkien said "it was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power." It sounded planned.

I, for one, do believe that Sauron put some fail safes on the ring. Remember, he wasn't all crazy and nihilistic like his master, he was cunning, though I recall Tolkien writing that he became less so in his later years after serving himself for so long.

It seems to me that giving up the Ring is the one thing that the Ring will never allow you to do

Unless it suits its purpose. If it has enough of a hold it could make its owner do (or trick them into doing) whatever it wanted.

As I said, I do not unfortunately have the Letters. Does anyone recognize the passages that I am referring to?

I know the very thread of which you speak. Yes, I remember what Legolas posted. It was this-

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.

Of course, it doesn't say Gandalf would master him. And what does he mean by "master" anyway. Does he mean that he could defeat his forces, or somehow break Sauron's tie to the ring, or what?

I think there's still plenty of wiggle room for my "the ring plot was a perfect plan" theory.

[lathspell]

Look at the temptation of the ring again. One of the biggest signs that someone was corrupted by the ring was that they desired it. People who managed to avoid its corruption wanted nothing to do with it (Gandalf, Elrond, Faramir). If they had a desire for the ring, then they were giving into the ring's temptation of power, plain and simple.

Agreed on everything, except this: if one the Wise, or now we know only Gandalf could do this, say Gandalf would take the Ring he wouldn't desire it, he would be needing it. No desire would he feel to wield this Ring, yet he knows he's the only one who can wield it, except Sauron. He takes it willingly, because there's no other way, not because of the desire to take it.

And it my belief that this quote,:

'Could we not still send messages to him and obtain his help?' asked Erestor. 'It seems that he has a power even over the Ring.'
'No, I should not put it so,' said Gandalf. 'Say rather that the Ring has no power over him.'

means that, those who could wield the Ring would be the ones that the Ring couldn't overpower. The Rings ability to corrupt it's bearer heart and mind stands apart from this, so the wielder would still be corrupted. Yet the Dominion over the Wielder wouldn't be, because the Ring couldn't overpower it's master.

Unless it suits its purpose. If it has enough of a hold it could make its owner do (or trick them into doing) whatever it wanted.

Therefore I believe this could never happen, for the Ring would never overpower it's Wielder.

greetings again,
lathspell

[the phantom]

Don't try to use Bombadil as an example of the ring's power. He was completely unlike any other person or thing in the book. Gandalf was afraid that if he (Gandalf) took the ring that he'd turn into a terrible new dark lord, but the concern with old Tom taking the ring was that he'd lose it or misplace it. That doesn't sound comparable at all.

If they are comparable, then we can assume that the natural behavior of good people claiming the ring would be to lose the ring, in which case Sauron could get it back quite easily. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

if one the Wise, or now we know only Gandalf could do this, say Gandalf would take the Ring he wouldn't desire it, he would be needing it

No. No one "needs" the ring. If they think they do, then they've been corrupted. No, the wise know that absolutely no one should use it, and if they're truly wise they know that the correct path is the one they chose in LOTR, to destroy the ring.

What I'm saying is, no one would claim the ring unless the were either 1) unwise or 2) corrupt.

And since all the powerful characters (Gandalf, Elrond..) are wise, then they'd be showing signs of the ring's corruptive influence if they took it. Do you get my drift?

Gandalf would NEVER take the ring. He was dead set against it. So if he did take it, he would no longer be 'Gandalf', he would be 'Gandalf giving in to the temptation of the ring'. He would have lost a part of the battle vs the ring. And once your will and resolve start losing and giving in, its a nasty downward spiral, till only the will and resolve of the ring remain.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

It is clear from Book V, Chapter IX that Sauron felt that not only Gandalf, but also Aragorn, Imrahil, Eomer, and Faramir were capable of taking the Ring and using it effectively against Sauron. It is also clear that he FEARED them because of that.

What does that tell you? That Sauron, who knows more about the One Ring than anyone else in Middle-Earth, knows that any one of those present at the Last Debate could take his Ring and, quite possibly, use it to overthrow Sauron.

So then, the question is, could the One Ring have been seized and used in the battle against Sauron, eventually winning over him?

The answer, according to not only this information but also the Foreword to the Second Edition of LOTR, is a resounding yes. Tolkien is responding to those who claim he based the book on WWII when he says (if the book WAS based on WWII): "Then the Ring would certainly have been seized and used against Sauron. . . . Sauron would not have been enslaved not annihilated, and the Dark Tower would not have been destroyed but occupied."

So, by Tolkien's own admission, the Ring could easily have been taken and used to beat Sauron, with that person becoming the new Ringlord. This means that not only Gandalf, Elrond, Saruman, and Galadriel could have done so, but also Aragorn, Eomer, Boromir, Faramir, Imrahil, Denethor, etc.

One might say that Saruman could be more expected to use the Ring effectively than Gandalf, for while Gandalf was known as the Grey Wanderer, Saruman already had hosts of Orcs and Men at his disposal in Isengard.

[ September 21, 2003: Message edited by: Elladan and Elrohir ]

[the phantom]

Sauron would have been enslaved not annihilated, and the Dark Tower would not have been destroyed but occupied.

Yes, that's been my main point all along. If the ring wasn't destroyed then Sauron and his works would have endured, his downfall not complete.

And definitely, like I said earlier, Gandalf, Aragorn, or some other powerful person could have used the ring's power and overthrown Sauron and his empire, but since the ring isn't gone niether is Sauron.

Being overthrown by a new ring lord would be a huge set back for him, who knows how long, but as long as the ring exists it's only a matter of time before he wins.

[lathspell]

If they are comparable, then we can assume that the natural behavior of good people claiming the ring would be to lose the ring, in which case Sauron could get it back quite easily.

I never said anything about all the 'good' guys. I compared those that had great power of mind, that's quite another thing than comparing them with all other good ones.

No. No one "needs" the ring. If they think they do, then they've been corrupted. No, the wise know that absolutely no one should use it, and if they're truly wise they know that the correct path is the one they chose in LOTR, to destroy the ring.

Oh yes, ofcourse the wisest path was to destroy the Ring as has been done in LotR. yet the point of this discussion is, would Sauron ever be great enough to be Dark Lord. You say that no one needs the Ring. Of course Sauron needed the Ring, but besides this... if Sauron was to be overthrown the person who had to do this would be needing the Ring, otherwise the commotion around the Ring wouldn't be so great. They would just overpower Sauron and destroy the Ring afterwards.
But the thing is that Sauron was too powerful to be overthrown except by using the Ring. Therefore the Ring was needed, and the Ring didn't have to have influenced the one to overthrow the Dark Lord.

Sauron would have been enslaved not annihilated, and the Dark Tower would not have been destroyed but occupied.

Exactly, and this time the Dark Lord would have the Ring and be corrupted. But would the Ring then overpower his new Wielder. No, I think not, otherwise that new Wielder couldn't have overthrown Sauron in the first place for he would have no power over the Ring, and therefore not be able to use it against Sauron.
So, Sauron would still exist and the Dark Tower would be inhabited, but by a new Dark Lord and that would be the one to rule the Second Darkness.

[the phantom]

They didn't need the ring to overthrow Sauron. They overthrew him by the correct method, a hopeless quest to destroy his ring.

If they wanted to destroy him by force then yes, the did "need" the ring, but only for the purpose. No one as an individual needs the ring, and because of that, no individual would be willing to be the wielder (unless they desired the ring, or in other words, they had been influenced by its temptation). Boromir told Elrond to use it, but he refused (as Galadriel refused Frodo) because they knew that it wouldn't solve anything. So even if the ring is "needed" to overthrow Sauron, Gandalf (also Galadriel, Aragorn, or Elrond) still wouldn't take the ring (unless they had a desire for it that overpowered their wisdom).

Overthrowing Sauron using the ring would require a powerful wielder, but none of the powerful were willing to be that wielder (save Saruman, Denethor, and Boromir). And the ones that were willing to use the ring (Saruman, Denethor, and Boromir) all showed signs of corruption.

As you can see, no one would use the ring unless they were corrupt or witless (don't realize the consequences).

Gandalf, Aragorn, and others who are uncorrupt and know the consequences of using it would never use it unless they became corrupt (because their knowledge could not be stolen). So if the ring and the desire for it became so great as to overcome their wisdom and previous will and resolve on that matter, it would only be a matter of time before it overcame their wisdom and previous will and resolve in everything.

But the thing is that Sauron was too powerful to be overthrown except by using the Ring. Therefore the Ring was needed, and the Ring didn't have to have influenced the one to overthrow the Dark Lord.

I think I've proved otherwise. No one would ever take it, no matter how much it was "needed", unless they were corrupted.

[The Saucepan Man]

Of the others only Gandalf might be expected to master him – being an emissary of the Powers and a creature of the same order, an immortal spirit taking a visible physical form.

Yes, that's the excerpt that I was thinking of, phantom. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Of course, it doesn't say Gandalf would master him. And what does he mean by "master" anyway. Does he mean that he could defeat his forces, or somehow break Sauron's tie to the ring, or what?

You are right. It doesn't say that Gandalf would master Sauron. But it suggests it as a possibility, indeed an expectation.

"Mastery" suggests to me dominion. The inference being that Gandalf would (or might be expected to) be able to use the Ring to achieve dominion over Sauron. Gandalf would become the new Dark Lord and Sauron his servant. Even if Gandalf was able to destroy that part of Sauron which existed independently of the Ring, a part of Sauron's will would, as you suggest, continue to exist within the Ring as long as it remained in existence.

The question that your argument raises for me, therefore, is whether Gandalf would be able to master the Ring, or whether he would eventually succumb to it, allowing Sauron to return and claim dominion over him. My original view was that this would not happen, since Gandalf is said by Tolkien (in that excerpt which you provided and also in another passage from the Letters that I recall having seen) to be the equal of Sauron, indeed someone who might be expected to master him. The Ring represented only a part of Sauron's will. Therefore, Gandalf, being at least the equal of Sauron's whole, should be able to achieve mastery over that part represented by the Ring.

However, I find your argument that Gandalf would have had to have been corrupted in the first place to consider using the Ring to be a compelling one. Indeed, the fact that anyone using the Ring, even out of a desire to do good, would, it seems, end up using it for evil suggests that it is inevitably a corrupting influence. Gandalf recognises that he would not be able to resist its corruption were he to claim it. That is why he does not seek to use it. And if he could not resist its corrupting influence, then he could not be expected to master it.

As for the others of the "wise" and "mighty" referred to on this thread, they would not even get to first base. As the quote at the top of this post indicates, only Gandalf could be expected to master Sauron, and phantom's logic suggests to me that even that would only be temporary.

Whether or not Sauron conceived all this when he forged the Ring is difficult to tell. The quote given by phantom that "it was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power" does indeed suggest that it might have been planned by Sauron. But equally, this "essential deceit" might have been a manifestation of the Ring's will to return to its Lord after it had become separated from him. If, however, it was planned, the one thing that Sauron didn't count on was the intervention of the hand of providence (some would say the will of Eru) in Gollum stumbling on the edge of the furnace as he seized the Ring off Frodo.

[the phantom]

Indeed, the fact that anyone using the Ring, even out of a desire to do good, would, it seems, end up using it for evil suggests that it is inevitably a corrupting influence. Gandalf recognises that he would not be able to resist its corruption were he to claim it. That is why he does not seek to use it. And if he could not resist its corrupting influence, then he could not be expected to master it.

Well put, Saucepan Man.

the one thing that Sauron didn't count on was the intervention of the hand of providence (some would say the will of Eru)

When there is no way, Eru finds a way.

And by the way Saucepan Man, I'm honored to have inspired a few thoughts in the mind of such an esteemed member of The Barrow-Downs. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]