Shelob=Big spider

[Anorien]

Ok, Shelob...i know she is a giagantic spider that likes to eat alive things, but who's side is she on? I mean, at first i got the impression that she was on Sauruman's side, but then it said the the orcs feared her, or did i miss something? The point is, is she non functional in the sides, or was she bad?

[onewhitetree]

Shelob = Big spider = Evil

[burrahobbit]

Shelob isn't on a side.

[Anorien]

Ahh...I see...ok.

Spiders like to eat, Shelob's a big nasty spider, she eats what she sees. Not gollum though, he's nasty and tough of course. Hm, I bet someone else has already posted.

[The Fifth]

Shelob appears to be on no one's side. Just an evil creature in a cave that eats elves and men and hobbits, although Sauron did converse with her without being eaten.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Shelob = Big spider = Evil

Miss onewhitetree, your reasoning, while succinct, fails to satisfy my sense of logic. One could receive the impression that you suffer from anti-arachnoid prejudice! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Does the fact of simply being a spider make a being evil?? What is the nature of evil?? What is the nature of spiders??

Experiencing hunger and satisfying that hunger by feeding on prey, i.e. being carnivorous, would make many other creatures, including humans, evil, if that is indeed what you are saying. I am not a vegetarian, therefore I too would be considered evil! I strongly protest against this train of thought!

*removes tongue from cheek and heads for the chatroom to have a good laugh with Kate* [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

Actually 'she-lob' = female spider [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

In regard to "Big Spider = Evil" I don't think such a stance actually can be summarily dismissed. Indeed, I think such a concept has quite a bit of merit within the legendarium.

First 'giant' spiders are always represented as "evil" being of the 'brood of Ungoliant' who 'assisted the Dark Power' by an alliance of 'common hatred'. This can be applied from Nandungorthin to Mirkwood - Mirkwood to the Ephel Duath. Indeed they seem to be represented as cheif 'evils' when taken in context with other more commonly described evil:

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected te Wise in the Elder days taught always that the Orcs were no 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might be irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruely and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost.* This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.
-pg419 'Orcs' Morgoth's Ring

They gave him food and drink, plenty of both, if not very fine; for Wood-elves were not goblins, and were reasonably well-behaved even to their worst enemies, when they captured them. The giant spiders were the only living things that they had no mercy upon. -'Flies and Spiders' The Hobbit

(I am aware of the time disparity all I am trying to communicate in the above are the general concepts and ideas)

Indeed the 'evilness' of monsterous/giant spiders and creatures of spider form may trace back to an experience of Tolkien's when he we quite young and even he does not dismiss this:

...many months later, when Ronald was beginning to walk, he stumbled on a tarantula. It bit him, and he ran in terror across the garden until the nurse snatched him up and sucked out the poison...Nevertheless, in his stories he writes more than once of monstrous spiders with venomous bites (Carpenter 14)

But I did know more or less all about Gollum and his pan, and Sam, and I knew that the way was guarded by a Spider. And if that has anything to do with my being stung by a tarantula when a small child, people are welcome to the notion (supposing the improbable, that any one is interested). I can only say that I remember nothing about it, should not know it if I had not been told; and I do not dislike spiders panicularly, and have no urge to kill them. I usually rescue those whom I find in the bath! -Letter 163 -pg 217 The Letters of JRR Tolkien

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

[Galorme]

The point is less that she is a spider, more that she is a decendant of Ungoliant. This means that she is inherantly Evil, as Ungoliant is a creature formed almost entirly of malice and greed.

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

I disagree. That may be the mythological reason but I when Tolkien wrote these things originally not all of them were first conceived as being counted among the progeny of Ungoliant.

[Boffer]

hey everyone. as far as sides goes, i agree that she is not on anyone's side. kinda what treebeard said, "i'm not on anyone's side,just as nobody is on my side"(i know that's not a direct quote,,but it's something like that). shelob just wants to eat and be full of herself.

[Arwen Imladris]

Yes, she is not really on a side, however, she has sort of an alliance with Sauron, she gards the tunnel and every once and a while he sends her some orcs to eat.

[Galorme]

Fingolfin I have to correct you in that Tolkien did always consider Shelob as akin to Ungoliant. As a mater of fact he originally conceived the Frodo would face Ungoliant herself in the caves of Kirith Ungol (later Cirith), and only after consulting his son did he change it to Shelob.

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

Galorme, I never said any such thing. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] I said some I never said and most certainly never meant Shelob. I am well aware of the evolution of that portion and indeed I think I must correct you on something:

As a mater of fact Tolkien originally conceived of their facing a host of spiders not simply 1. That is, 'great spiders' were a forerunner of both Ungoliante and Shelob and therefore must be counted as that 'originally conceived'. See The Treason of Isengard(HoME 7) for ample support.

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

[Boffer]

well,,actually i don't even think that sauron and shelob had an alliance. i just think that they their own parties goin on and if shelob got a meal out of it,that's cool. and if sauron got some sport out of it,,,that's cool too. but frankly i don't think shelob cared at all for sauron's existence except for the fact that she got an occasional meal from it. and can anyone tell me where shelob roamed before she settled down in torech ungol?

Po-ta-toes

[Galorme]

Sorry I’m new here. Fingolfin your Symbol is that the Standard of Fingolfin? Or just a picture that Tolkein thought summed him up?

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

It's no problem, [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Welcome [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Indeed it is a personal heraldric device of Fingolfin. Here are a couple notes of Tolkien's someone I know posted which helped me to understand it better:

(Note on rules taken from Tolkien Artist and Illustrator, which were in turn taken from the Bodelian Library)

• Women within a circle = personal
• Men within a lozenge = personal
• General (Impersonal) designs or emblems of a family = square (or [?] once, circular)
• The rank was usually held to be shown by the number of 'points' which reached the outer rim
• 4 was prince
  6-8 kings
• the great ancestors had as many [as] 16 in the House of Finwe

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

[steve]

Shelob, shelob was just a creature, a giant spider, she was like any other creaure, if she was hungry she ate, and then there were some people ie sauron and smeagol, who she was comefortable around and wouldnt eat, its that simple and since she lives in cirith ungol sauron used her to his advantage

[Feanaro]

Fact: Shelob was akin to Ungoliant.
Shelob, like Ungoliant, did not take any sides. As stated in The Two Towers, Sauron did not bother her, she did not bother him. They formed a symbiotic relationship, but were in no way allied. This type of relationship can be seen with Ungoliant and Melkor.

When Melkor first sought out Ungoliant, it is true that they aided each other in a mutually beneficial relationship, but this changed when Morgoth would not surrender the Silmarils to her, and she thus attacked him.

Is Shelob evil? Based on her predecessor (who was undoubtedly evil to begin with) I would say yes. She is evil and loves to eat.

Speaking of eating... Gilthalion (I believe) had a wonderful site dedicated to finding the relationships between characters of LotR and the Bible. A point was made there about Shelob being a perfect manifestation of gluttony, which is a sin--one of the seven deadly ones at that. Since Tolkien was a devout Christian, I would have to say that Shelob was meant to be regarded as evil.

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Feanaro ]

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

They formed a symbiotic relationship, but were in no way allied.

There is thus no alliance between Shelob and Sauron, the Dark Power's deputy; only a common hatred. -letter 144

[Feanaro]

Thank you Fingolfin, but I still wonder what point you are trying to make. They had no love for eachother, which is fine, but it doesn't change their symbiotic relationship. They may not have willingly aided each other, but Sauron still used Shelob as a more proficient watch over an entrance to his lands, and Shelob still ate any unfortunate orc that was left to rot in her lair. There is a mutual benefit to each side, which is the definition of symbiotic. But regardless, the main point of that statment was that the two were not allied, as has just been proved.

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

I'm not sure what you mean. What is the point of what?

[ July 27, 2002: Message edited by: Fingolfin of the Noldor ]

[Feanaro]

I was speaking of the post right before my last. I was merely wondering why you decided to add the fact that they hate eachother... seemed rather random, but it's not important enough to get off topic on.

[Fingolfin of the Noldor]

lol! No you misunderstand I was agreeing with you hence the:


What is being said is not that they hated each other but they had a mutual hatred for the same thing and that is why they worked together. I assure you that was not meant to be random [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Feanaro]

My goodness I didn't even see the thumbs up image! Well in that case I declare this question officially answered, unless of course someone feels like dragging this thread on even further.