Death and the Afterlife - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lord of Angmar · 08-30-2003, 10:29 AM

Death is one of the strangest entities in the works of JRR Tolkien, and death in Middle Earth is a multi-tiered and very strange notion.

The Elves are Immortal, and when their bodies are slain their spirits go to Mandos, and they linger forever in the Undying Lands. In that sense, they can never truly be dead.

The fate of Men is unknown. Although they go to Mandos, it is unknown whither they go after that and if their minds and spirits 'cease to be.' Whereas the spirit of the Elves always lives on, carnate or otherwise, Men may well be subject to true death, in which they no longer think or feel.

Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman and the Undead Ringwraiths are a very interesting example of Tolkien's ideas of death. Morgoth, after being defeated, is thrown into the Void, and for some unknown reason the Valar do not decide to 'kill' him or end his 'life.' Instead, it is prophecied that he will be 'killed' in the Final Battle, though it is unknown whither he will go after he is considered dead. Will his spirit and malice live on in form unrecognizable? Will his mind, his heart and his dark thoughts cease to exist in any sense? Sauron is rather the same. After the War of the Ring, did he pass on to the Void, or was he actually 'dead', in the sense that his spirit could never feel or think again and he could never be heard from again in any recognizable form? Do all of them go to some unknown purgatory after their 'deaths', in the Halls of Iluvatar, after which they follow the fates of their respective kindreds? These are a few strange questions that Tolkien never knotted up.

Another example is the Oath of Feanor which called the "everlasting darkness" upon any of the sons who failed to attain and keep the Silmarils. I assume that this darkness they speak of is the Void. Does this mean their spirits will never fully die out?

These are just a few questions that are entirely debatable (although never conclusively so). Sorry for the rather unorganized (and unproofread) post, I am rather in a hurry.

Cheers!
-Angmar

Amarie of the Vanyar · 08-30-2003, 11:05 AM

With regards to the what happens to Men after death, Aragorn says to Arwen:

Quote:

"But let us not be overthrown at the final test, who of old renounced the Shadow and the Ring. In sorrow we must go, but not in despair. Behold! We are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!"
Tale of Aragorn and Arwen; Appendix A

Although he doesn't explains in detail what awaits them after death, there is the promise of something; something like a 'new life'.

And in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, Finrod guesses that Men don't belong to Marred Arda:

Quote:

'who is but a guest here in Arda and not here at home, whith a House [hröa] that is built of the matter of Arda and must therefore (one would suppose) here remain? [...]
Then "death" would (as I said) have sounded otherwise to you: as a release, or return, nay! as going home!'
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth; HoME 10

And as they dialogue goes on, he concludes that the men's fëa will 'build' a healed hröa:

Quote:

'Then this must surely follow: the fëa when it departs must take with it the hröa. And what can this mean unless it be that the fëa shall have the power to uplift the hröa, as its eternal spouse and companion, into an endurance everlasting beyond Ëa and beyond Time?
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth; HoME 10

And after that, Finrod has a vision of Arda Healed:

Quote:

'And then suddenly I beheld as a vision Arda Remade; and there the Eldar completed but not ended could abide in the present for ever, and there walk, maybe, with the Children of Men, their deliverers, and ding to them such songs as, even in the Bliss beyond bliss, should make the green valleys ring and the everlasting mountain-tops to throb like harps'
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth; HoME 10

Arothir · 08-30-2003, 03:49 PM

Saruman may have gone to Mandos, since he was incarnate as an Adan. Also, Tolkien or CJRT said that when Melkor was thrust into the Void, he was "dead" as he was no longer existing in Ea.

Lord of Angmar · 08-30-2003, 04:25 PM

I see somewhat the line of thinking that would bring one to the conclusion that Melkor was 'dead' during his time in the Void. However he still existed as a physical entity (I say 'physical' because I am under the impression that he could not change back from his physical form), and he was still capable of coming back into the living world, even to Middle Earth (a mortal land). In this sense he is not dead. Since it is foretold that he will be slain at last in the Final Battle, I consider that to be his true 'death.'

Kaiserin · 08-30-2003, 08:02 PM

But then death can mean two things: death in the hröa (the cessation of physical life, when the fëa separates from the hröa), or death in the fëa (where there may be a physical form and activity, but no "life within")- can it not? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . One can be dead (nonexistent) to Ea, but existent via some other dimension or reality perhaps?

Gwaihir the Windlord · 08-30-2003, 11:31 PM

Yes, death is interesting. Basically a fea can never be destroyed -- when the hroa dies, the fea either hangs around to reform its hroa (Ainur), goes to Mandos (Elves, Dwarves (?)) or goes to Illuvatar as in the case of Men.

This is the basic principle. When the hroa is destroyed, the fea stays (leaves, but whichever way is not destroyed along with the hroa). The various races, I believe, represent the various possible forms of being; therefore the things their spirits end up doing represent all possible fearin eventualities that can exist.

Ahem. Something like that anyway =].

Evisse the Blue · 08-31-2003, 02:47 PM

Very interesting. I always wondered about the everlasting darkness and the Void, could it mean a state of non-being as in a 'timeout' (rather unfortunate choice of a word here [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ). But could it be that those that are cast in the Void and are not in Arda anymore are dead to the world only, since their actions, thoughts, etc, have no consequence upon Arda - but practically they exist (in fea, or maybe both fea and hroa). They can also be summoned back to Arda, as Melkor will, before the Final Battle, while from death, no Man or Ainur can be summoned. The last idea is my personal impression, that I got from the books.

A question that has been in my mind for a while now: could the Elves that dwelt in the Halls of Mandos ever meet with the Elves that lived in Valinor? That is, without the former being reincarnated or the latter dying.

Arothir · 08-31-2003, 04:16 PM

In Morgoth's Ring, according the ending of the Valaquenta(1958), Mandos said nothing about the healing of Arda, which would include the death of Morgoth. Therefore, Tolkien probably abandoned the Second Prophecy of Mandos.

Evisse the Blue · 09-01-2003, 04:10 PM

Indeed, the beliefs about the Final Battle as I read them in Silm (dunno about other places they may be in) are part of the Elvish folklore and therefore not necessarily absolute truths. It's what the Elves think will happen.

Anyway, I found a great topic in the topic graveyard, it answers many questions posed on this thread (but also poses new ones).
Here it is: Ealar and Incarnation. Anybody wants to comment?

Arothir · 09-01-2003, 06:21 PM

I thought Tolkien said the Dagor Dagorath was a Mannish invention.

Socialist · 09-01-2003, 06:50 PM

In one of the HoME (I can't remember which one, I'll check later) it says that Morgoth will be slayed by Turin to avenge all of man-kind. So, that means that Turin comes back to the circles of the world. Any thoughts about this?

Yavanna228 · 09-01-2003, 07:14 PM

Another question to be thrown into the mix- Could fea be destroyed by any other than Iluvatar, since he made the Imperishable Flame that inhabits fearin beings? Can one truly destroy what was not created by them? And is it in the nature of Iluvatar to destroy the fea, even if it is truly 'evil'?
Ok, that was more than one, but I'm just curious. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

THE Ka · 09-01-2003, 08:49 PM

Ah, death... one of the most interesting topics of philosophy,( not that the relgions of our world are in any sense close to that of middle earth). anyway, the concept of death and afterlife is always and still will be a mystery, when you pick up a lotr or any other tolkien book refering to middle earth. but, i did find a middle earth/ our world , connection. it concerns the Fea and Hroa belief and the ancient egyptian relgion. ( the ancient egyptian relgion is a dead relgion of corse [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] so, it doesn't go aginst what i said before in this reply [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). anyway the fea is in some ways is like the ancient egyptian's Ba. Not the Ka because, the Ka was the other one spirit that in a way died with you, your Ba - it was much different. The fea if i have read correctly stays "alive" and waits to reform the hroa. hora sounds like your body, so your Ba or fea is like your spirit. your Ba according to ancient egyptians could leave your tomb or "hang around" , and when your time was ready or you passed your underworld "test" your Ba could return to your body but,instead of going back to earth you when to a sort of heaven or "paradise". so like the fea one of the choices is to reform the hroa... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

well, i think i have covered the matter of death to an extent that i'm happy... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Our very hopes belied our fears, our fears our hopes belied, we thought her dying when she slept, and sleeping when she died.
- Thomas Hood, The Death Bed

Gwaihir the Windlord · 09-02-2003, 03:07 AM

Arothir, it is possible that Tolkien came up with that notion (that the idea of a Last Battle was the invention of Men) at some stage, as he came up with quite a few strange and implausible ideas over the years, that didn't fit in with his work and which he abandoned as reject thoughts; however it was not implemented if he did consider it (it is also quite likely that you have somehow do the wrong impression, of course...). The Dagor Dagorath is real, it is the end of Arda, and you can sense that it will happen throughout everything in the books.

(In reply to Socialist -- in the Last Battle, strange things are quite likely to happen... they will happen. What they are is unknown, but the fea of a Man returning to Ea is not at all an inconcievable possibility amongst the others.)

[ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

08-30-2003, 10:29 AM	#1
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Death and the Afterlife Death is one of the strangest entities in the works of JRR Tolkien, and death in Middle Earth is a multi-tiered and very strange notion. The Elves are Immortal, and when their bodies are slain their spirits go to Mandos, and they linger forever in the Undying Lands. In that sense, they can never truly be dead. The fate of Men is unknown. Although they go to Mandos, it is unknown whither they go after that and if their minds and spirits 'cease to be.' Whereas the spirit of the Elves always lives on, carnate or otherwise, Men may well be subject to true death, in which they no longer think or feel. Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman and the Undead Ringwraiths are a very interesting example of Tolkien's ideas of death. Morgoth, after being defeated, is thrown into the Void, and for some unknown reason the Valar do not decide to 'kill' him or end his 'life.' Instead, it is prophecied that he will be 'killed' in the Final Battle, though it is unknown whither he will go after he is considered dead. Will his spirit and malice live on in form unrecognizable? Will his mind, his heart and his dark thoughts cease to exist in any sense? Sauron is rather the same. After the War of the Ring, did he pass on to the Void, or was he actually 'dead', in the sense that his spirit could never feel or think again and he could never be heard from again in any recognizable form? Do all of them go to some unknown purgatory after their 'deaths', in the Halls of Iluvatar, after which they follow the fates of their respective kindreds? These are a few strange questions that Tolkien never knotted up. Another example is the Oath of Feanor which called the "everlasting darkness" upon any of the sons who failed to attain and keep the Silmarils. I assume that this darkness they speak of is the Void. Does this mean their spirits will never fully die out? These are just a few questions that are entirely debatable (although never conclusively so). Sorry for the rather unorganized (and unproofread) post, I am rather in a hurry. Cheers! -Angmar __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

08-30-2003, 03:49 PM	#3
Arothir Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: the Realm of Nargothrond beyond Narog Posts: 163	Saruman may have gone to Mandos, since he was incarnate as an Adan. Also, Tolkien or CJRT said that when Melkor was thrust into the Void, he was "dead" as he was no longer existing in Ea. __________________ Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine."

08-30-2003, 04:25 PM	#4
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	I see somewhat the line of thinking that would bring one to the conclusion that Melkor was 'dead' during his time in the Void. However he still existed as a physical entity (I say 'physical' because I am under the impression that he could not change back from his physical form), and he was still capable of coming back into the living world, even to Middle Earth (a mortal land). In this sense he is not dead. Since it is foretold that he will be slain at last in the Final Battle, I consider that to be his true 'death.' __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

08-30-2003, 08:02 PM	#5
Kaiserin Wight Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cair Paravel Posts: 150	But then death can mean two things: death in the hröa (the cessation of physical life, when the fëa separates from the hröa), or death in the fëa (where there may be a physical form and activity, but no "life within")- can it not? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] . One can be dead (nonexistent) to Ea, but existent via some other dimension or reality perhaps? __________________ The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

08-31-2003, 02:47 PM	#7
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	Very interesting. I always wondered about the everlasting darkness and the Void, could it mean a state of non-being as in a 'timeout' (rather unfortunate choice of a word here [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ). But could it be that those that are cast in the Void and are not in Arda anymore are dead to the world only, since their actions, thoughts, etc, have no consequence upon Arda - but practically they exist (in fea, or maybe both fea and hroa). They can also be summoned back to Arda, as Melkor will, before the Final Battle, while from death, no Man or Ainur can be summoned. The last idea is my personal impression, that I got from the books. A question that has been in my mind for a while now: could the Elves that dwelt in the Halls of Mandos ever meet with the Elves that lived in Valinor? That is, without the former being reincarnated or the latter dying. __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

08-30-2003, 11:31 PM	#6
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	Yes, death is interesting. Basically a fea can never be destroyed -- when the hroa dies, the fea either hangs around to reform its hroa (Ainur), goes to Mandos (Elves, Dwarves (?)) or goes to Illuvatar as in the case of Men. This is the basic principle. When the hroa is destroyed, the fea stays (leaves, but whichever way is not destroyed along with the hroa). The various races, I believe, represent the various possible forms of being; therefore the things their spirits end up doing represent all possible fearin eventualities that can exist. Ahem. Something like that anyway =].

08-31-2003, 04:16 PM	#8
Arothir Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: the Realm of Nargothrond beyond Narog Posts: 163	In Morgoth's Ring, according the ending of the Valaquenta(1958), Mandos said nothing about the healing of Arda, which would include the death of Morgoth. Therefore, Tolkien probably abandoned the Second Prophecy of Mandos. __________________ Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine."

09-01-2003, 04:10 PM	#9
Evisse the Blue Brightness of a Blade Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: wherever I may roam Posts: 2,685	Indeed, the beliefs about the Final Battle as I read them in Silm (dunno about other places they may be in) are part of the Elvish folklore and therefore not necessarily absolute truths. It's what the Elves think will happen. Anyway, I found a great topic in the topic graveyard, it answers many questions posed on this thread (but also poses new ones). Here it is: Ealar and Incarnation. Anybody wants to comment? __________________ And no one was ill, and everyone was pleased, except those who had to mow the grass.

09-01-2003, 06:21 PM	#10
Arothir Wight Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: the Realm of Nargothrond beyond Narog Posts: 163	I thought Tolkien said the Dagor Dagorath was a Mannish invention. __________________ Then Felagund upon the head of Arothir set it: "Nephew mine, till I return this crown is thine."

09-01-2003, 06:50 PM	#11
Socialist Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 13	In one of the HoME (I can't remember which one, I'll check later) it says that Morgoth will be slayed by Turin to avenge all of man-kind. So, that means that Turin comes back to the circles of the world. Any thoughts about this? __________________ Knock Knock. Who's there? Weapons of Mass Destruction. So there you are!

09-01-2003, 07:14 PM	#12
Yavanna228 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: on the wings of the morning Posts: 394	Another question to be thrown into the mix- Could fea be destroyed by any other than Iluvatar, since he made the Imperishable Flame that inhabits fearin beings? Can one truly destroy what was not created by them? And is it in the nature of Iluvatar to destroy the fea, even if it is truly 'evil'? Ok, that was more than one, but I'm just curious. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Peace __________________ 'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!'

09-01-2003, 08:49 PM	#13
THE Ka Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: As with the flygja Posts: 1,403	Ah, death... one of the most interesting topics of philosophy,( not that the relgions of our world are in any sense close to that of middle earth). anyway, the concept of death and afterlife is always and still will be a mystery, when you pick up a lotr or any other tolkien book refering to middle earth. but, i did find a middle earth/ our world , connection. it concerns the Fea and Hroa belief and the ancient egyptian relgion. ( the ancient egyptian relgion is a dead relgion of corse [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] so, it doesn't go aginst what i said before in this reply [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). anyway the fea is in some ways is like the ancient egyptian's Ba. Not the Ka because, the Ka was the other one spirit that in a way died with you, your Ba - it was much different. The fea if i have read correctly stays "alive" and waits to reform the hroa. hora sounds like your body, so your Ba or fea is like your spirit. your Ba according to ancient egyptians could leave your tomb or "hang around" , and when your time was ready or you passed your underworld "test" your Ba could return to your body but,instead of going back to earth you when to a sort of heaven or "paradise". so like the fea one of the choices is to reform the hroa... [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] well, i think i have covered the matter of death to an extent that i'm happy... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Our very hopes belied our fears, our fears our hopes belied, we thought her dying when she slept, and sleeping when she died. - Thomas Hood, The Death Bed __________________ Vinur, vinur skilur tú meg? Veitst tú ongan loyniveg? Hevur tú reikað líka sum eg, í endaleysu tokuni?

09-02-2003, 03:07 AM	#14
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	Arothir, it is possible that Tolkien came up with that notion (that the idea of a Last Battle was the invention of Men) at some stage, as he came up with quite a few strange and implausible ideas over the years, that didn't fit in with his work and which he abandoned as reject thoughts; however it was not implemented if he did consider it (it is also quite likely that you have somehow do the wrong impression, of course...). The Dagor Dagorath is real, it is the end of Arda, and you can sense that it will happen throughout everything in the books. (In reply to Socialist -- in the Last Battle, strange things are quite likely to happen... they will happen. What they are is unknown, but the fea of a Man returning to Ea is not at all an inconcievable possibility amongst the others.) [ September 02, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]