Tuor: One lucky shmoe...

[FingolfintheBold]

Every time i read the story of Tuor i cant help but think that he was easily one of the most blessed Men in the silmarillion. The first part of his life was really hard, of course, and the winter wandering was described as one of great hunger and fear, but even so he seemed to be the hero of a much better story than, say, Turin the miserable (though great).

He seemed always to be led to fair and wonderful places (like the sea), he had a friendship with mighty Ulmo, was one of a very few mortals to ever visit Gondolin, married Turgon's daughter, went to Valinor and (people who enjoy pushing off topic, please avert your attention from the next phrase, as it is extremely contraversial) was granted eternal life (who knows what the far reaching consequences of what ive just said will be...) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Anyway, i guess the purpose of this post is less to talk about how lucky or blessed Tuor was, and more to find out some of your opinions on him. Tolkien seems to have written less about him than many of his silmarillion men, like Turin, and many fans i have met really dislike Tuor for some reason. They find his tale to be boring and unimportant, when in fact it had far more far-reaching value than other sil. humans.

Perhaps this is because, as Sam says, good tales arent much to listen to, while sad stories like Turin's are relished.
Thoughts?

[The X Phial]

Happy lives, while satisfying, are not, ultimately, as interesting to the reader. Notice that the tale of Beren and Luthien gives no details about their happy years together after the return from the halls of Mandos. Only that they had a life together, and that it was solitary and full of contentment. Some, myself included, would like more details about the happy bits, but I understand the tendency to focus on conflict, for it is what drives a story.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Actually, quite a lot about Tuor is written in the UT. Not as much as for Turin of course, but then Turin's tale is the longest story of all, and is a vastly complicated sorrow.

Remember that the Silmarillion (annals of the First Age) is itself, essentially, a sorrowful tale in its entirety; its main power comes through this. (It is the basis for the world, after all.) The story of the Children of Hurin is a significant part of this. The light, or rather the hope of light, comes in at the end of the Silmarillion -- during the Sil itself (while there are, like Tuor's, some glad tales), there is neccessarily more misery than there is happiness (although the hope of happiness is preserved throughout).

As to my opinion, I would say that (referring the above paragraph) Tuor's tale is about the right length. It gives the First Age's sad chronology a joyful -- but short-lived -- episode of light, which is an essential part of the larger and beautifully hopeful tale of of Earendil. (The theme of hope, in fact, can be said to be the purpose of Tuor's existence.)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I can't really see how people would find Tuor's story to be 'boring'. Anyway, is joy really a prerequisite for uninteresting stories?

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Well, Eomer, a story of sorrow does tend to be rather better. (True at least in the British psyci; I can't speak for those of us of the more American persuasion of course [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].)

There is this, and the fact -- as I put forward in my post -- that Turin's story, as a compulsory and interwoven part of the Silmarillion, fits in with much more and enhances the sorrowful theme of the Sil itself. Ultimately, there is but one joyful theme in this miserable story; and that is the thread, that we find running through it, of the tale of Bright Earendil. And Tuor's story is a component of this.

That's what it's there for -- as part of the little vein of hope, the Hope of Elves and Men, that lies at the heart of the otherwise total darkness of the Silmarillion. Tuor's tale can reall be accounted as the same entity as the tale of Earendil.

[Lord of Angmar]

Gwaihir has it, as usual. Tuor is "a vein of hope" running through the tragedy that is the Silmarillion. I hate to use this word, but he is used as more of an exposition for Earendil than anything else. I personally found his story quite fascinating, especially with regards to the Fall of Gondolin. While I do enjoy (if that is a proper word) the excitement and despair of Turin's story, it usually leaves me feeling drained and weary, something I never find when reading of Tuor's adventure. But that is just me.

[Palan]

Gwaihir, the phrase "vein of hope" is exactly the right phrase for the story of Tuor, but it is also found in some of the ohter stories; the climax of this "vein of hope" being the coming of Earendil to Taniquetil to prayer for the salvation of elves and men. Some other "veins of hope:" Beren and Luthien claiming a Silmaril (leading Maehedros to believe that Morgoth was not unassailable); the escape of the Gondolodrim from the Nirnaeth (spoiling Morgoth's victory, setting the stage for Huor's vision -- the birth of star, Earendil); the escapes of Elwing with the Silmaril.

The only story that I can not any hope in is the Narn. But that is for another post. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[the phantom]

There was a thread in the movies section discussing making the Sil into a movie (it's back on the 2nd page now). One of the primary focuses was who would play the parts and what stories would be included. Here's a quote (from me) that sort of goes with what you guys have been saying.

Maybe it'd work, I don't know. Tuor is one character that I've never really connected with or drawn a bead on his personality and appearance.

What I mean is, I'm pretty indifferent to Tuor, therefore I'm pretty indifferent to the choice of actor.

I don't think his tale is boring or unimportant, nor do I dislike Tuor, but I am just not gripped by him (when compared to Turin, Feanor, and others). In fact, I'm much more interested in Ecthelion and Glorfindel, two lords of Gondolin that died in its defense.

I don't intentionally think this way, but people seem to gain more standing in my mind with a tragic or heroic death as opposed to just sailing away and living happily ever after. For those that die happily (or don't die), they can only make up for that by doing great deeds during their life (eg Aragorn, who died peaceful and happy, but I grew to love him through his words and actions in his life).

Even after reading about Tuor's journey in UT, I still didn't feel like I connected with him at all. I don't know. It was almost as if Tolkien wrote him that way or something. Do you think Tolkien was semi-indifferent to him?

It bugs me that I'm maybe not giving Tuor the respect he deserves, but I just wasn't moved by his story.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Suppose for a second that Finarfin hadn't gotten involved in the War of Wrath, and instead had just lived peacefully in Aman. I would still have enjoyed reading about him because he was a great guy.

Ok, thats a bad example but do you see what I mean? I do enjoy reading about characters who don't get involved too much in, oh I don't know, wars or battles? I guess it just depends on your interests.

For example, I know a guy who only reads World War II books. My Douglas Adams collection is rather boring to him.

[Finwe]

It really depends on the person. Most newspapers are run the same way. You rarely see "good" events publicized on the front page, most of the time, you see the teenage murders, rapes, etc. etc. All the "good" articles about achievements in the community are shunted to the back pages, and most often just get a small paragraph, nothing more. It's what the readers want.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Some other "veins of hope:" Beren and Luthien claiming a Silmaril (leading Maehedros to believe that Morgoth was not unassailable); the escape of the Gondolodrim from the Nirnaeth (spoiling Morgoth's victory, setting the stage for Huor's vision -- the birth of star, Earendil); the escapes of Elwing with the Silmaril.

Well alright, Palan =], there are in fact two hopeful things in the Silmarillion. We can count the Tale of Tinuviel as another one, I suppose, as it is a different entity (and is a tale of hope, of escape and high aloofness from the travails of the darkening world); the other three you mentioned are themselves a part, as is Tuor, of Earendil's thread.

[ August 26, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[FingolfintheBold]

Sorry about not posting back on my own thread! Ive been gone for a few days...

Anyway, i feel quite the opposite about Tuor. I agree that he is presented as a silver hope against the sable backdrop that is the sil., but i fell rather connected with him, and he is one of my favorite characters in any of the books. Not quite at the top, you understand, but near.

So why is it that most people find a happy story to be less enjoyable? While there are many parts of the sil. and the LotR that stir me for their sorrow, and many that stir me for thier wonder or whatnot, the more lighthearted good parts always stand out, too. And it is not as if Tuor's tale can be thrown aside as all fun and games. Imagine how he must have felt standing before Ulmo himself, wearing mighty elven armour and hearing the seafoam crash against the shore in tune with the sea-longing beating in his heart...
Those of you that dont feel as connected woth Tuor as you do with Turin, or dont think his tale is as wonderful, why is that? I think that Tuor's history is just as, if not more important than Turin's.

the happy times of humankind are the empty pages in the history books...

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

However, humans have little reason to study why things went right.

[Falagar]

I think it may be because Túrin has more feelings than Tuor. What did Tuor feel when he fled Gondolin? I don't know, if it was mentioned I can't remember it. What did he feel when the Grey Elves he lived with were killed? I can't remember, if it was written at all. What did he feel when he asked Turgon to marry his daughter? Was he nervous? How much did he love Idril? Much, apparently, but it isn't described that good.

Túrin, on the other hand, has much feelings. Despair. Passion. Doubt. A touch of arrogance. Guilt. A touch of love. More despair. And so on...

Now, the version given in UT gives more flesh to the story of Tuor, but sadly it was never finished.

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: Falagar ]

[Elentári]

Well, Eomer, a story of sorrow does tend to be rather better. (True at least in the British psyci; I can't speak for those of us of the more American persuasion of course .)

Really? What are Americans like then?

I agree that Tuor's story had as much if not more importance as Túrin's story, but finding Túrin's story more gripping is not to say that we disregard Tuor completely. I agree, I think that Túrin had much more emotions, which frankly I relate to much more than some of the other characters who were always good...I get this whole 'going cold' thing too. It's weird, and very annoying to those around me and not least to myself. But anyway...I guess it's like comparing Harry to...I don't know, someone who seems unaffected by major emotions and the like, and never seems to get angry. When Harry loses his temper big-time I can entirely relate to him. I find his character more interesting, like I find Túrin's character more interesting. The more heart-wrenching story line only adds to the interest. Still, I do like Tuor's story. It's just that when I think of the events of the First Age it's Túrin's story I think of first.
OK, did any of that make sense? Probably not, but oh well...

Oh yeah, and...what is a shmoe???

[ August 27, 2003: Message edited by: Elentári ]

[the phantom]

I think it may be because Túrin has more feelings than Tuor. What did Tuor feel when he fled Gondolin? I don't know, if it was mentioned I can't remember it. What did he feel when the Grey Elves he lived with were killed? I can't remember, if it was written at all. What did he feel when he asked Turgon to marry his daughter? Was he nervous? How much did he love Idril?

You've put your finger on it, Falagar. I posted this earlier-

Even after reading about Tuor's journey in UT, I still didn't feel like I connected with him at all. I don't know. It was almost as if Tolkien wrote him that way or something.

I was going after the same point. You don't get to know Tuor because (I feel) he's not described. That's why I wondered if Tolkien was not as interested in him as he was in his other characters. Maybe Tuor was just an engine to get to Earendil. Then Tolkien, realizing Tuor's importance (as Earendil's father), felt obligated to write more about Tuor (but never really invested himself as much as he did for Turin and others).

I definitely think I'd like Tuor more if I just had a better feel for him (in other words, if there was more written about him, with greater personal depth).

[Corwyn Celesil]

The story of Tuor, his journeys, his encounter with Ulmo, his entrance into Gondolin, the description of Gondolin, and the ensuing story as told in UT has long been one of my favorites. As much as I enjoy the language of the story of Turin, I don't like it much at all. It is, essentially, rather depressing, and I prefer a story with a happy ending, as cliched as that may be. (Though the fact that Gondolin falls is not very happy.)
About Americans vs. British mentalities, as a whole, Americans demand happy endings. Of all the movies that have come out recently, how many have not ended happily? I don't know about currently, but the European (and Asian) mindset has been much different in the past. Take "A Tale of Two Cities" and "The Prisoner of Zenda." They are full of valiant deeds and end in a melancholy manner. (On the Asian side of it, take "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" as an example.) A happy ending is good, but not required.
I just had a thought about the happy stories, the bits of history that "are the empty pages in the history books." These empty pages are the reason for the full pages. Whether in LoTR or in real life, the great trials are gone through so that someone can live peacefully and happily. The Dunedain went though great trials so that the Shire could be ignorant and peaceful. Tolkien wrote a huge book about a terrible struggle to destroy a Ring, but the reason for the destruction of that Ring was the ensuing joy and peace of Middle-earth. That joy and peace is summed up in two or three chapters while the struggle goes on for nearly a thousand pages, but peace, happiness, joy, "the empty pages" are the whole point. The full pages are a very visible backdrop to an invisible but glorious drama.