Turgon's army of 10,000 in the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad

[tinewelt]

During the fifth battle, as the host of hurin and turgon are retreating, hurin speaks to turgon and says

go now lord, while tim is! for in you lives the last hope of the Eldar, and while Gondolin stands morgoth shall still know fear in his heart.

Turgon replies

not long now can Gondolin be hidden: and being discovered it must fall

i am just wondering how long it was between the fifth battle and the fall of gondolin. It seems to me that if a host of 10,000 departed from a hidden city, that it could not go unoticed by Morgoth's spies. although it is possible that they could have done it. It just seems to me that during the departure or the return of Turgon's remaining force some spies would have found the hidden city. But it could be that the vigilance of its guardians killed most spies and they never returned to morgoth to report. Since Gondolin was never found by morgoth until betrayal by Maeglin, I guess this could be true. I am kind of confused. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

~Namarie~

[Maéglin]

Remember the vassals of Manwe such as,Thorondor & Gwaihir kept watch over Gondolin and pursued any spies that attempted to pass into the hidden vales of Tumladen.

Also in the building of Gondolin, Ulmo set forth and maintained his power in the Vale of Sirion so that the hidden entrance cannot be found against Turgon's will. Of course Turgon could do nothing when Maéglin betrayed Gondolin to Morgoth.

But for the most part the Eagles, the power of Ulmo and the terrain of Echoriath (the encircling mountains) made it next to impossible for anyone to find Gondolin without having known its precise location.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Actually, this is a good point. Although one of your last statements is not entirely correct; Morgoth guessed at the whereabouts of Gondolin through the unwitting Hurin, some years after the Nirnaeth, although he did not know how to approach it or where it was exactly until, as you say, it was betrayed by one from within it. Such vague information, thanks to the effectiveness of the hiding-place, would be all that any spy of Morgoth could hope to relay to Angband.

(Edit: Maeglin, it is true that Ulmo's power assisted in protecting Gondolin; but still, even with this, it is unlikely that he could have screened out the sight of Turgon's 10,000 marching men from the sight of an observer. I've though of some other (more down-to-earth) factors, below.)

Morgoth did know that Turgon's army had gone southward, but thence they had disapeared from his knowledge. I would probably guess that this was due to three things, principally. A massive scouring, by the Eagles and the Eldar of Gondolin, would probably have been undertaken shortly before the departure of the army, thereby locating and killing off any servants of Morgoth that might be lurking around. The skill of the Elves and Eagles at this search would have been very effective.

Secondly, the land south of Serech and Anfauglith was at this time -- temporarily -- controlled by the forces of the Union of Maedhros, and the main power of Morgoth had withdrawn back to Angband (soon, of course, to break out again and cover all the lands). Upon departure from Gondolin, the army of Turgon would have had a considerable 'screen' to hide behind here; on their return, the hosts of Morgoth were stopped by the Men of Hador while Turgon escaped Southward, again, under an effective screen as Morgoth's forces were held back. Moving quickly, they could have withdrawn with a speed rapid enough to be out of harm's way in sufficient time.

On the retreat and after the fall of Hurin's men, they would probably have left the odd company of hidden ambushers to waylay advancing searchers, or perhaps the Eagles covered them as they hurried back to Tumladen. In other words, it was probably an effective retreat.

To summarise; not only was Gondolin exceptionally well-hidden and protected, but, I should think, Turgon's army itself was covered, the whole way through.

[ August 19, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[Maerbenn]

tinwelint wrote:

i am just wondering how long it was between the fifth battle and the fall of gondolin.

The Nirnaeth was in the year 472 (the 'Year of Lamentation'), the Fall of Gondolin occured in 510.

[tinewelt]

so it was actually on 38 years between the battle and the downfall of gondolin. I guess that is actually a short period of time for immortals. Another question... although some of his force made it home, exactly what was the total loss of the 10,000? Because maybe (highly unlikely) the fall of gondolin could have been prevented... or stalled momentarily if there had been 7 or 8 thousand more elves. But its still likely that it would fallen in the end.

[Voralphion]

Even if they did have another 7 or 8 thousand men, I doubt it would have done much at all in the battle of the Fall of Gondolin. Morgoth sent a huge force, which included dragons, balrogs and machines. An extra 8000 elves although perhaps delaying Morgoth's victory by a few hours, couldn't have stopped the city from falling.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I believe that most of his force made it home.

[Lhunardawen]

The Nirnaeth was in the year 472 (the 'Year of Lamentation'),

A little correction here: The Year of Lamentation was in 473 of the First Age... the year of my birth.

[Maéglin]

Well actually.. with an extra 8000 Elves who knows... because we dont exactly have numbers to work with. But I have to say, Voralphion is probably right. The city was taken at unawares with all its defense known because of my namesake :P

However I did not see how Maeglin could have led the attack from within as it said in the Silmarillion. Surely the Elves under his command would not slay their own kin, even if they were Maeglin's personal protege...

[Voralphion]

In the Fall of Gondolin, it says that those lead by Maeglin did in fact kill their own kin, although it doesn't say why they were traitors. Perhaps they too like Maegin were captured and released by Morgoth and were under his command, or it could be that they were offered something they desired, be it power, riches or a woman, like Maeglin was. Perhaps they just didn't like Turgon and wanted to see his city fall.

[Elora]

Hmmm, I believe it was Ulmo who said at the time he led Turgon and his followers to the site where Gondolin was built that Gondolin would fall.

Then Turgon prepared to depart from Nevrast and leave his halls in Vinyamar beside the sea: and there Ulmo came to hime once again, and spoke with him. And he said: "Now thou shalt go at last to Gondolin, Turgon; and I will maintain my power in the Vale of Sirion, and in all the waters therein, so that none shall mark thy going, nor shall any find there the hidden entrance against thy will. Longest of all the realms of the Eldalie shall Goldolin stand against Melkor. But love not too well the work of thy hands abd the devices of thy heart; and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth West and cometh from the Sea."

And Ulmo warned Turgon that he also lay under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo had no power to remove. "Thus it may come to pass," he said, "that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee too ere the end, and treason awake within thy walls. Then they shall be in peril of fire. But if this peril draweth nigh indeed, then even from Nevrast one shall come to warn thee, and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for Elves and Men. Leave therefore in this house arms and a sword, that in years to come he may find the, and thus shalt thou know him, and not be deceived."

So from that, a few things seem evident. The Curse of the Noldor meant that Turgon would be betrayed from within. Ulmo believed it likely Gondolin would fall, whether Melkor found it himself or the Doom of Mandos worked to that end given enough time. It was for this reason, the arms and helm that Tuor bore to Gondolin later were left at Nevrast.

Based on this, had Hurin never wandered calling and searching near Gondolin, had Maeglin never sucuumbed to evil, Gondolin was still doomed to fall before a single stone had been lain down to form those bright city walls so fair. Such was the Doom of Mandos and so the will of Illuvator.

[Finwe]

The Doom of Mandos decreed that all wrought by the rebellious Noldor would one day fall, and all would come to naught. He warned them that they would be betrayed by their own kin, and go through many harsh travails. I think Turgon knew in his heart of hearts that Gondolin would one day fall, he just didn't want to admit it to himself. He was overconfident in thinking that a kingdom protected by him and his House, and the Eagles of Manwë, would stand forever. So in that sense, the fault is partly his.

Against those odds, I don't think that 7 or 8 thousand more would have helped much. Perhaps more men fleeing with Tuor and Idril would have meant that Glorfindel wouldn't have died, but I don't think they could have kept Gondolin from falling. We have to take into account Morgoth's cleverness. He had been preparing for a large-scale assault for a long time, which means that he had enough time to breed an enormous army in Angband. If he also had that time to come with all those dragons, monsters, etc. etc., that army couldn't have been beaten by anything less than the full Host of the West, led by Eonwë himself, probably.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I think you've got it, Finwe.

8,000 extra Elves, though? I shouldn't have thought that Turgon's army suffered such losses as that, namely a 4/5 casualty rate. Or anything like that bad. I don't suppose we've got any hints as to the actual numbers (which I suspect not to be that large) that Turgon did lose in the Nirnaeth?

[tinewelt]

If there are any numbers, I cannot find them. (but that certainly does not mean they are not out there). I think you are right Gwahir, its doubtful that Turgon would have lost 8,000 elves. When I posted that question earlier in the thread, i was really posing a what if question. I would guess that he returned with around 7 thousand of his force. It also says that

Turgon summoned all that remained of the host of Gondolin and such of Fingon's people as could be gathered and he retreated towards the pass of Sirion.

I wonder if the last remnant of Fingon's people fled back to Gondolin with Turgon? Just another thought.

[Elora]

Interesting. I think it doubtful that any survived of Fingon's people to flee to Gondolin and the protection of the new High King of the Noldor in Exile (Turgon).

As I understand it, Fingon withdrew from Fingolfin's greater realm to focus on Mithrim and sustain that realm (one of the most ancient Nolorin encampments in Middle-earth). Mithrim did become the vanguard of the Eldarin State in mortal lands. But, after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, where Fingon was slain, it is said all his people were slain with him.

Mithrim was later occupied by Easterlings and never regained.

Yet, in the telling of the Lay of Turin Turambar, it is said that Rian, wife of Hurin's brother Huor, fled into the wild after no tidings could she get of her husband. This is following the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, and she was aided by the Grey-Elves of Mithrim.

So, by that, not all residents of Mithrim went with Fingon to the Fifth Battle. Some remained and aided the Edain in the immediate years following. It is then Easterlings leaked into the lands of Mithrim.

Still later on, in the opening passages concering Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin, the following is said:

It has been told that Huor the brother of Hurin was slain in the Battle of Unnumbered Tears: and in the winter of that year Rian his wife bore a child in the wilds of Mithrim, and he was named Tuor, and was taken to foster by Annael of the Grey-Elves, who yet lived in those hills.

From that, I think that Fingon's host at the Fifth Battle was completely slain. Those left at Mithrim seemed to have faded away. Some took to the hills. I wonder if others attempted to re-settle in Doriath or Gondolin as Easterlings pervaded Mithrim.

Given that Morwen sent her son to Doriath, and she was kinswoman by marriage to Rian, it's possible there was a diplomatic link between the Edain and mayhap Eldar with Doriath. So, in the absence of anything else that I can find, I am leaning towards the survivors that did leave Mithrim drifting to Doriath. After all, they are Grey-Elves and it seems logical that they would seek out their kin.

However, that is all conjecture. I'd be interested to see if a definitive answer could be arrived at.

[tinewelt]

That is very interesting indeed! There seems to be a few different scenario's that could have taken place. The last few soldiers of Fingon's force that Turgon did draw to him might have seperated from him after the retreat was safe and away from battle. However, the evidence you present is pretty convincing that none of Fingon's people survived. I would also like an answer!

~Namarie~