Is it ALL gone?

[Gurthang]

After the Valar gave up their rule of Ea, and Iluvatar changed the world, was all of Beleriand destroyed. I know that most of it was covered by the ocean, but is all of it underwater. There must be something left...

[Mithadan]

Small fragments of Beleriand remained above the waves, though it has been debated whether the drowning of Beleriand occured at the end of the First Age or gradually, culminating at the overthrow of Numenor.

Lindon corresponds roughly to Ossiriand, though many of the rivers of that land are no more. The island of "Himling" (so labelled apparently incorrectly on several maps) is the top of the hill, Himring where Maedhros' fortress stood. Tol Fuin (referred to but not appearing on maps) is part of the highlands of Dorthonion. It is said that the grave of Nienor/Niniel and Morwen stands above the waters as Tol Morwen. Someone has mentioned, without providing any textual reference, that the summit of Haudh-en-ndengin also rises from the waters.

I have seen an overlay style map on another website and will try to link it here later.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

Part of Tar-nu-fuin, the forest on Dorthonion also remains no called Tol Fuin,which roughly translates, I think aa 'island of darkness' or something similar. You can see the island Tol Fuin in the Treason of Isengard (HoME 7) where Tolkien was outlaying his first drawings of M-E.

The info. that Mithadan gives is found in Unfinished Tales whilst the info. On Tol Morwen is given in The Wanderings of Hurin (HoME 11) and I think something is also stated in Narn i Hin Hurin

[ August 18, 2003: Message edited by: Inderjit Sanghera ]

[Mithadan]

The map I referred to above can be found here.

[Rumil]

Thanks for the map-link Mithadan, I never realised that Tol Fuin was so big!

Does JRRT say anything about it in the 2nd and 3rd ages in the HoME series? I suppose it must have been fairly wet and chilly at that latitude. I wonder if any 'bad guys' survived the War of Wrath there?

[Meneltarmacil]

There is a good map in Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-Earth that should clear that part up. A picture of the map is HERE, and it also shows those other parts of ME you've been wondering about to the east and south.

I wonder if any 'bad guys' survived the War of Wrath there?

An interesting idea. Since Tol Fuin used to be Dorthonion, maybe some of Ungoliant's offspring survived there...

[lindil]

Thanks Mithadan, are you a subsciber to Mallorn? is the membership worth it?

This was a great peice of research, very impressive and I would not be suprised if we nned to use it for reference at some point in the TftE.

[Mithadan]

I do not subscribe to Mallorn, though I too would like to hear more about it. You may wish to explore the website I linked above a bit. It has some interesting stuff. Unfortunately, not all of it is in english.

[Gurthang]

Thanks for the link to that map, Meneltarmacil. I never realised that Numenor was that big, or that Valinor was that far south of Eriador. And the stuff about Tol Fuin and Himling was really good.

[Inderjit Sanghera]

never realised that Numenor was that big, or that Valinor was that far south of Eriador.

Thats because it isn't.

Eressea was level with Beleriand.

Then, it is said, he stood forlorn looking out to sea, and it was night, but far away he could see a glimmer of light upon Eressëa ere it vanished into the West

The quote is from Last writings(HoME 12) Speaking of Cirdan, looking at to sea.

[Gurthang]

That clears up the fact that Valinor was about due West of Eriador. Does anyone know how big Numenor was? Is the map wrong again. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Gurthang]

Since Tol Fuin used to be Dorthonion, maybe some of Ungoliant's offspring survived there...

I don't think any of them have survived on the island. In TTT, JRRT states:

But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.

So Shelob was the last of the Great Spider descendants of Ungoliant. But how she got to the Mountains of Shadow, is completely unknown to me.

[The Only Real Estel]

But none could rival her, Shelob the Great, last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world.

&

So Shelob was the last of the Great Spider descendants of Ungoliant. But how she got to the Mountains of Shadow, is completely unknown to me.

Precisly what I thought, Gurthang. [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

[Meneltarmacil]

Then, it is said, he stood forlorn looking out to sea, and it was night, but far away he could see a glimmer of light upon Eressëa ere it vanished into the West

Well, he might not have been looking due west, he could have been looking southwest or whatever the direction toward Eressea was.

I will admit that there is ONE thing wrong about that map (location of Belegost) but that has nothing to do with Eressea.

Also I wonder why Lake Helevorn and most of the rivers of Ossiriand (except for the northern part of the Gelion that still flows through Forlindon) are missing in the 2nd/3rd Age?

[ August 20, 2003: Message edited by: Meneltarmacil ]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

If you have a look at the two maps, the Blue Mountains themselves were changed (significantly compressed); Lake Helevorn probably got upset, and drained itself off somewhere. The country around there is likely still to be marshy.

The tributaries of Gelion -- which itself survived, being a strong and thick river -- probably suffered the same fate. The intrusion of the Gulf of Lhun probably didn't help either.