Olorin's Return - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Pallando B.C · 12-15-2002, 06:00 AM

Just a quick one.

Do you think when Mithrander returned to Aman, he stayed in the form of an old man, or did he return to the form he took in his youth?

Or was he originally in the form of an old man in his youth?

Who knows......?

[ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: Pallando B.C ]

arelendil · 12-15-2002, 06:49 AM

Umm...a puzzler
I think that he would look like himself. if that makes sense. When the powers sent him to ME they gave him the form of an old man so he doesn't really look like that. when your in the west ever thing is given back its natural state. OR maybe when in the west he would be a Maiar like a lesser power and could therefore take any shape he wanted or have none at all! That's what i think, that he could take any shape! Of course he would have to be Mithrandir at least until Bilbo and frodo die.

Manardariel · 12-15-2002, 06:53 AM

I suppose that even in the days of his "youth" he was an old man. His purpose was to be wise and to lead the people, and what figure could be better for that then the "wise old man"?

I have another question tho the subject. After his reincarnation(sp?) to gandalf the WHITE, did he stay Mithrandir=> GREY Pilgrim? Or would the name be changed?

Manwe Sulimo · 12-15-2002, 07:46 AM

Yes. He was the same person, so he still kept his names (remember, "Gandalf" was also a given name). Legolas cries out "Mithrandir! Mithrandir!" when he figures out who he is, and some of the people of Gondor also call him by that name.

Legolas · 12-15-2002, 02:27 PM

Manwe, Pallando wasn't asking about the form in which Gandalf returned - he asked about the form he took on while he was gone (the time he spent in Aman between the Battle of the Peak and his return to Middle-earth).

The answer is not given to us - did he appear as the old man we see in Middle-earth, or did he appear as he had earlier in Aman as Olórin? This isn't covered by Tolkien. I do not have any reason to believe one over the other except for that the 'old man' appearance was made specifically for him to travel to Middle-earth without drawing a lot of (negative) attention. It seems only natural that this incarnation was not how he appeared in Aman.

Additionally, we're not even sure how such (Ainur) spirits were presented in Aman.

obloquy · 12-15-2002, 06:39 PM

Unfinished Tales tells us that in the early days in Aman, Olórin "walked among [the Elves] unseen, or as one of them." He did not take the form of an old man in his 'youth' in Aman. This incarnation was imposed as a condition of his mission in Middle-earth. The incarnate form brought with it all the hardships of the flesh, including hunger, pain, weariness, and more. He was no doubt exhausted when he returned to Aman, and I think it is safe to assume he abandoned the incarnate form as soon as he was told that his mission was complete.

tangerine · 12-15-2002, 06:59 PM

When Saruman died in RotK, it said that a white mist rose from his body and passed into the west. I guess this was a 'spirit form' of sorts, like the ones the Ainur had before fashioning new and tangible ones for themselves as it says in the Silm. This is one possibility; nothing that I have found so far confirms it, and in TTT Gandalf says himself that he waould not darken the light of day with that tale. Though there are hints given in several places, the real answer remains a mystery.

Manwe Sulimo · 12-15-2002, 07:11 PM

Legalos, I was answering Manardariel [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Gilbo · 12-15-2002, 07:31 PM

As I remember it. Saruman's spirit LOOKED to the West but was scattered by a WIND.
In my readings, the Valar, and Maia, take what form they choose,suited to their personalities. Maybe on the other side, Olorin was a stone fox.(I haven't caught on to theaccent marks,yet)
Someone mentioned "Unfinished Tales", I'm a newbie and I must have missed that. Input, please.

Iarwain · 12-15-2002, 07:50 PM

Well, Gilbo, Unfinished Tales is a compilation of several of Tolkien's works about, and outside of the Lord of the Rings. It includes, among other things, deeper histories of Numenor, Lothlorien, the Palantiri, the Istari (Wizards), a background for the Hobbit, and the Druedain. It also includes bits of missing history from before the Lord of the Rings, and during the Silmarillion.

[ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

Legolas · 12-15-2002, 10:51 PM

Manwe, oh, k [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I misunderstood the question because it wasn't clear...

I thought Pallando was asking about Gandalf's form during his second stay in Aman (the brief visit between Moria and Fangorn Forest) - not about Gandalf's ultimate return to Aman.

Pallando B.C · 12-15-2002, 10:53 PM

That was what I was refering to.

obloquy · 12-16-2002, 04:01 AM

Ah. Still, Gandalf says:

Quote:

Then darkness took me; and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.

He didn't return to Aman when he died, because Aman is within Time. Eru himself (who exists outside of creation and Time) 'enhanced' and re-embodied Gandalf, before returning him to Middle-earth. The whole situation was a unique one that only happened by Eru's personal intervention. The 'enhancement' I mentioned was evidently an allowance of more power on the physical plane -- or, and in my opinion more likely, a lifting of the limitations on the Istari. Though I used to deny it, this 'enhancement' probably also entailed an increase in spiritual stature. It occurs to me now that this would be necessary since Gandalf had died as an Incarnate. In my thread, Ëalar and Incarnation, I address the precedents of ëalar who died while incarnate. In short, they were reduced to impotence. If Gandalf still had a job to do, his fëa would require restoration before it was re-embodied.

[ December 16, 2002: Message edited by: obloquy ]

12-15-2002, 06:00 AM	#1
Pallando B.C Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rhûn, Tasmania Posts: 521	Olorin's Return Just a quick one. Do you think when Mithrander returned to Aman, he stayed in the form of an old man, or did he return to the form he took in his youth? Or was he originally in the form of an old man in his youth? Who knows......? [ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: Pallando B.C ] __________________ {JHart} Support The Aussies!

12-15-2002, 06:49 AM	#2
arelendil Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Eryn Lasgalen Posts: 202	Umm...a puzzler I think that he would look like himself. if that makes sense. When the powers sent him to ME they gave him the form of an old man so he doesn't really look like that. when your in the west ever thing is given back its natural state. OR maybe when in the west he would be a Maiar like a lesser power and could therefore take any shape he wanted or have none at all! That's what i think, that he could take any shape! Of course he would have to be Mithrandir at least until Bilbo and frodo die. __________________ Nai Vardo eleni ilye lumenn' enomentielvo siluvar!

12-15-2002, 06:53 AM	#3
Manardariel Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Rivendell Posts: 807	I suppose that even in the days of his "youth" he was an old man. His purpose was to be wise and to lead the people, and what figure could be better for that then the "wise old man"? I have another question tho the subject. After his reincarnation(sp?) to gandalf the WHITE, did he stay Mithrandir=> GREY Pilgrim? Or would the name be changed? __________________ Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun. Blog :-)\|FanFic Dream City

12-15-2002, 07:46 AM	#4
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Yes. He was the same person, so he still kept his names (remember, "Gandalf" was also a given name). Legolas cries out "Mithrandir! Mithrandir!" when he figures out who he is, and some of the people of Gondor also call him by that name. __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-15-2002, 02:27 PM	#5
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Manwe, Pallando wasn't asking about the form in which Gandalf returned - he asked about the form he took on while he was gone (the time he spent in Aman between the Battle of the Peak and his return to Middle-earth). The answer is not given to us - did he appear as the old man we see in Middle-earth, or did he appear as he had earlier in Aman as Olórin? This isn't covered by Tolkien. I do not have any reason to believe one over the other except for that the 'old man' appearance was made specifically for him to travel to Middle-earth without drawing a lot of (negative) attention. It seems only natural that this incarnation was not how he appeared in Aman. Additionally, we're not even sure how such (Ainur) spirits were presented in Aman. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-15-2002, 06:39 PM	#6
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 939	Unfinished Tales tells us that in the early days in Aman, Olórin "walked among [the Elves] unseen, or as one of them." He did not take the form of an old man in his 'youth' in Aman. This incarnation was imposed as a condition of his mission in Middle-earth. The incarnate form brought with it all the hardships of the flesh, including hunger, pain, weariness, and more. He was no doubt exhausted when he returned to Aman, and I think it is safe to assume he abandoned the incarnate form as soon as he was told that his mission was complete.

12-15-2002, 06:59 PM	#7
tangerine Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 100	When Saruman died in RotK, it said that a white mist rose from his body and passed into the west. I guess this was a 'spirit form' of sorts, like the ones the Ainur had before fashioning new and tangible ones for themselves as it says in the Silm. This is one possibility; nothing that I have found so far confirms it, and in TTT Gandalf says himself that he waould not darken the light of day with that tale. Though there are hints given in several places, the real answer remains a mystery.

12-15-2002, 07:11 PM	#8
Manwe Sulimo Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Taurelilómëa-tumbalemorna Tumbaletaurëa Lómëanor Posts: 553	Legalos, I was answering Manardariel [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ "Monkeys learn sign language so they can tell the dolphins they love them."

12-15-2002, 07:31 PM	#9
Gilbo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: maryland Posts: 34	As I remember it. Saruman's spirit LOOKED to the West but was scattered by a WIND. In my readings, the Valar, and Maia, take what form they choose,suited to their personalities. Maybe on the other side, Olorin was a stone fox.(I haven't caught on to theaccent marks,yet) Someone mentioned "Unfinished Tales", I'm a newbie and I must have missed that. Input, please.

12-15-2002, 07:50 PM	#10
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Well, Gilbo, Unfinished Tales is a compilation of several of Tolkien's works about, and outside of the Lord of the Rings. It includes, among other things, deeper histories of Numenor, Lothlorien, the Palantiri, the Istari (Wizards), a background for the Hobbit, and the Druedain. It also includes bits of missing history from before the Lord of the Rings, and during the Silmarillion. [ December 15, 2002: Message edited by: Iarwain ] __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

12-15-2002, 10:51 PM	#11
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Manwe, oh, k [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] I misunderstood the question because it wasn't clear... I thought Pallando was asking about Gandalf's form during his second stay in Aman (the brief visit between Moria and Fangorn Forest) - not about Gandalf's ultimate return to Aman. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-15-2002, 10:53 PM	#12
Pallando B.C Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Rhûn, Tasmania Posts: 521	That was what I was refering to. __________________ {JHart} Support The Aussies!