Frodo's departure - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Anorien · 07-22-2002, 02:07 PM

Ok, this is one thing that has always confused me, what happened to Frodo? He saved the Shire! So, why could he no longer enjoy the beauty of it? You would think that after all his perils, that would be the one place to bring him comfort! But, why didn't it? Then why did Gandalf go with him and Bilbo in the end? Oh, and one more...because Sauruman was a white wizard, does that mean that he died and was resurected like Gandalf?

Anna Licumo · 07-22-2002, 02:39 PM

Frodo could not enjoy the beauty of the Shire because he did not fit in ME anymore. He had been damaged beyond repair, but also cleansed, and the only place he could reside now was Valinor.

Gandalf was ressurcted (sp?) because he was a Maia. The Valar no doubt brought him back so he could help save ME some more. Saruman was also a Maia, but I doubt they would have brought him back. Then again, Sauron still came back, just as a floaty eye. Huh. I don't really no that one! I don't think he could have come back since all the Istari were supposed to go back to Valinor anyway, but Tolkien never mentioned Radagast going back.... So, not sure. Sorry! I'll go read the appendixes again and see if I can find an answer for you!

*Varda* · 07-22-2002, 03:00 PM

As for why Gandalf went with Frodo and Bilbo in the end, I personally think all the ring bearers went on that ship. Galadriel, Elrond went, and didn't Cirdan go too? I'm not sure about that.

piosenniel · 07-22-2002, 03:09 PM

Here is a link to an in depth discussion of this subject in this forum:

Frodo's Sacrifice

O'Boile · 07-22-2002, 03:16 PM

Frodo left because the was wounded in both body and spirit. Think if it as kind of like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, although it is not exactly the same. He'd seen to much, and delt with to much to be able to be content on Middle Earth. The immortal lands of the elves were the only place where he could feel at peace.
Gandalf was a Maia (just like Sauron, Ragadast and Saruman). If an Maia's form (or body, but form is a better word) was destroyed, they could re-manifest themselves again. This is why Sauron is defeated and then takes a new body several times through out history. During the time of the novel, he is actually not just a big red eye. That is only the way the movie protrayed him. He actually has a physical form in the books. Gandalf and Saruman (and Ragadast) are slightly different, since they have agreed to come Middle Earth in an incarnate body (actually inhabiting a body instead creating a form and asuming it) so they were subject to things like hunger and fatigue that normal Maia are not. This was their (and why they are called the istari which means wizards) choice so that the could communicate on an equal level with men and elves. When gandalf dies, his spirit would not die (probably, I don't think this is known for sure given his incarnate nature of being an istar), but his phisical body (note how this is different from the form mentioned above) did. He would have been able to manifest himself in a new form (and hence come back, but not as the gandalf we knew), but that would have affected is mission (the valar sent him with specific limitations to his power). Thus he needed to have is body brought back to life.
Think of it kind of like Jesus in Christianity. God could assume any form he wanted and could thus appear human (this is what Sauron did), if you destroyed that body, he could just make another one. (Sauron could change shape at will in the first two ages, at one time he was a giant wolf). Gandalf is like Jesus, he is stuck in a human body. Again, this was a limitation he chose... he really is like Sauron.

When the ring is destroyed, most of Sauron's power is destroyed as well, he is now unable to assume a form, and his spirit disipates. Saruman also is unable to assume a new form when he is killed as he has spent most of his power in controling his army (much the way morgoth expends his power creating and controling evil creatures in the first age). That is why they do not come back.

Anorien · 07-22-2002, 07:18 PM

Thanx guys! I just didn't know, and as for the question about Gandalf, I guess we'll never know, will we?

*Varda* · 07-23-2002, 03:53 AM

I think Gandalf was sent back to Middle Earth because he still had a part to play. When Saruman died that was pretty much it, it was over - also why would the Valar want to send him back to wreak more havoc? As for Sauron I don't think he really died he was still just floating about waiting to come back and cause some trouble. I guess he only had enough power at the beginning to become an eye...then couldn't get back to his full strength without the ring.

O'Boile · 07-24-2002, 01:21 PM

As I said before, Sauron was in bodily form during Lord of the Rings. The movie portrays him as only an eye, but that is different from the books.

07-22-2002, 02:07 PM	#1
Anorien Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Old Navy of Rohan Posts: 138	Frodo's departure Ok, this is one thing that has always confused me, what happened to Frodo? He saved the Shire! So, why could he no longer enjoy the beauty of it? You would think that after all his perils, that would be the one place to bring him comfort! But, why didn't it? Then why did Gandalf go with him and Bilbo in the end? Oh, and one more...because Sauruman was a white wizard, does that mean that he died and was resurected like Gandalf? __________________ FRODO: all low and retarded Oh Mr. Frodo, do you have any more food? Here eat mine, I’m so fat. How about I carry the ring for you. It’s soooo pretty, I mean heavy! SAM: Why you little-! FRODO: You asked for it!

07-22-2002, 02:39 PM	#2
Anna Licumo Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2002 Location: Eryn Lasgalen... okay, KS actually. ::sigh:: Posts: 78	Frodo could not enjoy the beauty of the Shire because he did not fit in ME anymore. He had been damaged beyond repair, but also cleansed, and the only place he could reside now was Valinor. Gandalf was ressurcted (sp?) because he was a Maia. The Valar no doubt brought him back so he could help save ME some more. Saruman was also a Maia, but I doubt they would have brought him back. Then again, Sauron still came back, just as a floaty eye. Huh. I don't really no that one! I don't think he could have come back since all the Istari were supposed to go back to Valinor anyway, but Tolkien never mentioned Radagast going back.... So, not sure. Sorry! I'll go read the appendixes again and see if I can find an answer for you! __________________ Rock-a-bye Nazgul, on Weathertop, when the Ring calls, the horses will run. And when Sauron calls, the Nazgul will go, and down will come evil, Ringwraiths and all!

07-22-2002, 03:00 PM	#3
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	As for why Gandalf went with Frodo and Bilbo in the end, I personally think all the ring bearers went on that ship. Galadriel, Elrond went, and didn't Cirdan go too? I'm not sure about that. __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

07-22-2002, 03:09 PM	#4
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Here is a link to an in depth discussion of this subject in this forum: Frodo's Sacrifice __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

07-22-2002, 07:18 PM	#6
Anorien Wight Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Old Navy of Rohan Posts: 138	Thanx guys! I just didn't know, and as for the question about Gandalf, I guess we'll never know, will we? __________________ FRODO: all low and retarded Oh Mr. Frodo, do you have any more food? Here eat mine, I’m so fat. How about I carry the ring for you. It’s soooo pretty, I mean heavy! SAM: Why you little-! FRODO: You asked for it!

07-22-2002, 03:16 PM	#5
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	Frodo left because the was wounded in both body and spirit. Think if it as kind of like Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, although it is not exactly the same. He'd seen to much, and delt with to much to be able to be content on Middle Earth. The immortal lands of the elves were the only place where he could feel at peace. Gandalf was a Maia (just like Sauron, Ragadast and Saruman). If an Maia's form (or body, but form is a better word) was destroyed, they could re-manifest themselves again. This is why Sauron is defeated and then takes a new body several times through out history. During the time of the novel, he is actually not just a big red eye. That is only the way the movie protrayed him. He actually has a physical form in the books. Gandalf and Saruman (and Ragadast) are slightly different, since they have agreed to come Middle Earth in an incarnate body (actually inhabiting a body instead creating a form and asuming it) so they were subject to things like hunger and fatigue that normal Maia are not. This was their (and why they are called the istari which means wizards) choice so that the could communicate on an equal level with men and elves. When gandalf dies, his spirit would not die (probably, I don't think this is known for sure given his incarnate nature of being an istar), but his phisical body (note how this is different from the form mentioned above) did. He would have been able to manifest himself in a new form (and hence come back, but not as the gandalf we knew), but that would have affected is mission (the valar sent him with specific limitations to his power). Thus he needed to have is body brought back to life. Think of it kind of like Jesus in Christianity. God could assume any form he wanted and could thus appear human (this is what Sauron did), if you destroyed that body, he could just make another one. (Sauron could change shape at will in the first two ages, at one time he was a giant wolf). Gandalf is like Jesus, he is stuck in a human body. Again, this was a limitation he chose... he really is like Sauron. When the ring is destroyed, most of Sauron's power is destroyed as well, he is now unable to assume a form, and his spirit disipates. Saruman also is unable to assume a new form when he is killed as he has spent most of his power in controling his army (much the way morgoth expends his power creating and controling evil creatures in the first age). That is why they do not come back.

07-23-2002, 03:53 AM	#7
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	I think Gandalf was sent back to Middle Earth because he still had a part to play. When Saruman died that was pretty much it, it was over - also why would the Valar want to send him back to wreak more havoc? As for Sauron I don't think he really died he was still just floating about waiting to come back and cause some trouble. I guess he only had enough power at the beginning to become an eye...then couldn't get back to his full strength without the ring. __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

07-24-2002, 01:21 PM	#8
O'Boile Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 117	As I said before, Sauron was in bodily form during Lord of the Rings. The movie portrays him as only an eye, but that is different from the books.