Did Arwen have to give up her immortality? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

*Varda* · 07-21-2002, 05:22 PM

I just finished reading RotK for the 3rd time. I don't really see WHY Arwen couldn't go to Valinor after Aragorn died. Couldn't she just have remained an elf and stayed till Aragorn died and then passed into the West? Was it really necessary for her to give up her immortality? Maybe I'm just in denial.

One more question - Did Elrond's children have to go into the West at the same time as him? In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen it seemed so.

Elrian · 07-21-2002, 05:29 PM

Back in the end of the first age when Elrond was given the choice of which race he wanted to be counted among, Elves or Men, upon choosing to become counted among the Eldar he was told that his children also would have a choice upon his depature from ME, to go with their father into the West and be counted among the Elves or to remain in ME and be counted among Men. Arwen chose to remain and marry Aragorn therefore her choice was to be counted among Men.

*Varda* · 07-21-2002, 05:34 PM

Thanks for explaining that. I was never entirely sure if or why they had to leave with Elrond, and why Arwen then couldn't pass into the west. Still in denial about Arwen and Aragorn both dying though. It's just that empty space you get when the book's finished and Frodo's gone etc...well time to get cracking (properly) on the Silm.

Arwen Imladris · 07-21-2002, 06:12 PM

I think too that, Arwen wanted to be with Aragorn after he died.

Kuruharan · 07-21-2002, 09:43 PM

For some reason I fell compelled to be a wet blanket and point out that we don't know that they would have been, and neither did they.

burrahobbit · 07-21-2002, 11:31 PM

Quite, Kuruharan, but they certainly had a better chance of it than they would have had if Arwen had chosen to be an Elf.

Arathiriel · 07-22-2002, 12:40 AM

Personally, I cannot see Arwen continuing her life for any length of time after she had known such love with Aragorn...

I believe had she been immortal when he died she still would have gone to Cerin Amroth, laid down, and died of a broken, grieiving heart... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

*sniff*

The story of Aragorn and Arwen has such a tragic air about that I want to cry whenever I think about it!

<font color="orange">

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-22-2002, 01:24 AM

In Appendix A, the Story of Aragorn and Arwen, Arwen herself gives the answer to that question.

Aragorn says:

Quote:

The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall be there evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men.

Arwen answers:

Quote:

Nay, dear lord, that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence.

Aragorn and Arwen were married for 120 years; by that time, all elves who wanted to leave Middle-earth had gone. As to her brothers, they did not go to the Havens with Elrond, but I don't know whether they stayed in Middle-earth for good or went west later. Perhaps someone else has a reference to their fate.

The Silver-shod Muse · 07-22-2002, 11:00 AM

So then Aragorn and Arwen's children were counted among men because both of their parentes were counted among men?

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-22-2002, 11:01 AM

Certainly!

Daniel Telcontar · 07-22-2002, 11:34 AM

Elladan and Elrohir both chose to stay in ME, which is the cause to Elrond's great grief after the War of the Ring: He lost all three of his children when sailing west. What is annoying me is that it never says why Elladan and Elrohir stayed in ME, only that it was for some other reason than Arwen (meaning not because they loved a mortal woman).

Dimaldaeon · 07-23-2002, 07:37 AM

Maybe Elladan and Elrohir were still really ****ed at the orcs and wanted to keep hunting them or maybe they were still looking for the orcs that had tortured their mother (this would explain why the kept running off with the Dunedain to hunt orcs)

07-21-2002, 05:22 PM	#1
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	Did Arwen have to give up her immortality? I just finished reading RotK for the 3rd time. I don't really see WHY Arwen couldn't go to Valinor after Aragorn died. Couldn't she just have remained an elf and stayed till Aragorn died and then passed into the West? Was it really necessary for her to give up her immortality? Maybe I'm just in denial. One more question - Did Elrond's children have to go into the West at the same time as him? In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen it seemed so. __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

07-21-2002, 05:29 PM	#2
Elrian Eldar Spirit of Truth Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE Posts: 794	Back in the end of the first age when Elrond was given the choice of which race he wanted to be counted among, Elves or Men, upon choosing to become counted among the Eldar he was told that his children also would have a choice upon his depature from ME, to go with their father into the West and be counted among the Elves or to remain in ME and be counted among Men. Arwen chose to remain and marry Aragorn therefore her choice was to be counted among Men. __________________ ~Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.~

07-21-2002, 05:34 PM	#3
Varda Maiden of Tears Join Date: May 2002 Location: Valinor. Posts: 571	Thanks for explaining that. I was never entirely sure if or why they had to leave with Elrond, and why Arwen then couldn't pass into the west. Still in denial about Arwen and Aragorn both dying though. It's just that empty space you get when the book's finished and Frodo's gone etc...well time to get cracking (properly) on the Silm. __________________ 'It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: someone has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them' ~Frodo "Life is hard. After all, it kills you." - Katharine Hepburn

07-21-2002, 06:12 PM	#4
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	I think too that, Arwen wanted to be with Aragorn after he died. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

07-21-2002, 09:43 PM	#5
Kuruharan Regal Dwarven Shade Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold Posts: 3,593	For some reason I fell compelled to be a wet blanket and point out that we don't know that they would have been, and neither did they. __________________ ...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no...

07-21-2002, 11:31 PM	#6
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	Quite, Kuruharan, but they certainly had a better chance of it than they would have had if Arwen had chosen to be an Elf. __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

07-22-2002, 12:40 AM	#7
Arathiriel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: The Blessed Realm Posts: 284	Personally, I cannot see Arwen continuing her life for any length of time after she had known such love with Aragorn... I believe had she been immortal when he died she still would have gone to Cerin Amroth, laid down, and died of a broken, grieiving heart... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] sniff The story of Aragorn and Arwen has such a tragic air about that I want to cry whenever I think about it! <font color="orange"> __________________ 'I love him. He's like that, and sometimes it shines through, somehow. But I love him, whether or no.' - Samwise Gamgee

07-22-2002, 11:00 AM	#9
The Silver-shod Muse Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: The shoulder of a poet, TX Posts: 388	So then Aragorn and Arwen's children were counted among men because both of their parentes were counted among men? __________________ "'You," he said, "tell her all. What good came to you? Do you rejoice that Maleldil became a man? Tell her of your joys, and of what profit you had when you made Maleldil and death acquainted.'" -Perelandra, by C.S. Lewis

07-22-2002, 11:01 AM	#10
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Certainly! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

07-22-2002, 11:34 AM	#11
Daniel Telcontar Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2002 Location: Denmark Posts: 713	Elladan and Elrohir both chose to stay in ME, which is the cause to Elrond's great grief after the War of the Ring: He lost all three of his children when sailing west. What is annoying me is that it never says why Elladan and Elrohir stayed in ME, only that it was for some other reason than Arwen (meaning not because they loved a mortal woman). __________________ Two beer or not two beer, that is the question; by Shakesbeer

07-23-2002, 07:37 AM	#12
Dimaldaeon Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ireland & damn proud of it. Posts: 125	Maybe Elladan and Elrohir were still really ****ed at the orcs and wanted to keep hunting them or maybe they were still looking for the orcs that had tortured their mother (this would explain why the kept running off with the Dunedain to hunt orcs) __________________ Dear Saddam, Do not disunderestimate me.Yours G.W.Bush You're not drunk if you can still hold onto a blade of grass to stop yourself from falling off the face of the Earth