the Druedain and the power of the Watch Stone

[tinewelt]

I Was skimming through UT today, and came across a story that i have not read for some time, and felt this was a great place to ask this question. It involves the story of "The Faithful Stone". The Druedain (Drug)named Aghan left the watch stone with his friends in the woods, and the passage in which I am requiring about is this :

Then Barach was shaken with fear, for marauding Orcs carried with them brimstone or some other devilish stuff that was quickly inflamed and not quenched with water. Recovering himself he bent his bow, but at that moment, just as the flames leapt up, he saw a drug come runing behind the Orcs. One he felled with a blow of his fist, and the other fled; then he plunged barefoot into the fire, scattering the burning fuel and stamping on the orc flames that ran along the ground. Barach made for the doors but when he had unbarred them and sprang out the drug had disappeared.

Then Aghan returns and Barach shows him the watch stone. Then this passage

At length aghan led him to a thicket at the edge of the clearing in which the house stood. there the watch stone was, sitting on a dead orc; but its legs were all blackened and cracked, and one of its feet had split off and lay loose at its side. Aghan looked grieved; but eh said: "ah well! he did what he could, and better that his legs should trample or fire than mine" then he sat down and unlaced his buskins, and barach saw that under them there were bandages on his legs. aghan undid them. Last night I woke before morning came, and i was in pain, and found my legs blistered. then i guessed what had happened

After all this of this passage, this is what I wonder about:

. Alas! if some power passes from you to a thing that you have made, then you must take a share in its hurts!

the druedain were of the Atani,as pointed out in the story. But my question is where does that source of power come from? (the watch stone) Was there ever any reference of the men of Gondor or any other race of men using or replicating this kind of power? They were not evil, so the power is not of Morgoth, nor is it evil. How do they pass power of theirs into a stone and contrive it to do as it did in the above passage? Just wondering.

~Namarie~ [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

This case is an interesting one. Human 'magical' power did apparently exist in ME; there are a few artefacts -- the Stone of Erech (its power to hold Men back, for a while, from death), the invincible stone of Orthanc and of the Outer Wall of Gondor, the possibly magical sword of Merry -- on which the Numenoreans appear to have laid some kind of power. This power, though, in all cases appears to be passive in physical nature rather than active, like the Drug-statue.

Anything like this is strange. It would seem strange if even the Eldar could animate stone -- their 'magic' was generally more subtle as well, although more common, although they seem to have had some power over certain elements in an active way (eg the water-flood of Rivendell). For these reasons, I believe that the tale of the watch-stone did not in fact happen. It is more likely that it was a fabricated story, made up by a dramatic exagerator; the Haladin in Brethil were rather superstitious of the mystical Druadanic ways.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I had always assumed that this story, however brilliant, was merely a tale of Men.

[Finwe]

Gwaihir, it was not the Stone of Erech that kept those ghosts "alive," it was Isildur's curse. He cursed them to be trapped there until his heir summoned them to fight against Sauron, and that was what they were waiting for, Aragorn's Ride. The Stone of Erech was merely a symbol, not the reason.

As for the Elves and Gondorians, I wouldn't call them magical, per se. I just think that they have a very close affinity with nature. That was how the flood was called up at Rivendell. That is also how Orthanc and the Outer Walls are so impregnable. The Gondorians had those skills because they learned it from the Elves. I wouldn't necessarily call it magic.

As for Merry's sword, perhaps it was magic, or perhaps it was the little Hobbit's stout, pure heart that wounded the Witch-king more. I personally think it was more of the latter. Anyone can wield a blade, but when it is the hands of one both stout and pure of heart, then there is an opponent worth fighting.

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

I realise that it was Isildur's oath that kept the Dead Men back from death, swearing upon the Stone of Erech. The Erech stone-affair was what I was referring to. (Edit: I recognise that there was probably something to do with Illuvatar in this.)
As to Elrond's flood and the stone of the walls of Orthanc; how exactly they were contrived -- by an affinity with nature, by words of command, by mental-physcic force -- I do not know. 'Magic' is used for want of a better word. Magic-like forces, born out of all three of these inductions that I gave as examples (perhaps others, too) indeed existed in Middle-Earth.

(Edited addon [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] The Elves, who were utterly bound up in and were a part of the world in their essence, could perform 'magic' in some cases because of this connection; because they were a part of what they were magic-ing. The Ainur have much-varied and strong powers in Ea, and since the World thrives upon their work and their music, they also have this connection that the Elves do.
Men do not. Thus, Men do not have 'magical' powers to the extent of the Elves.)

Obviously, it was the thrust of Merry's arm that inflicted damage upon the Witch-King's knee like that. The sword did not do it on its own, own of its own power. 'Magical' connotations, however, were attached to it.

[ August 14, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

[tinewelt]

If this story is made up, then I am very sad indeed [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] But it does seem to be the logical explanation, due to the fact that that type of power is not "legitimate" in the race of men, (few rare occasions, as pointed out in the last few posts)and is not consistent with the most other stories of the Atani. However, it very well could be something that Tolkien planned on going back and touching up, and never got around to it. Either way, its a great story to debate.

~Namarie~

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

If this story is made up, then I am very sad indeed [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

You seem to be one of those unfortunate people who do not yet realise that in Tolkien, the whole thing is made up. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] But within the context of Middle-Earth, I can see no reason to particularly want this story to be 'real'. It would just cause problems, after all, if it was.

I don't think Tolkien would have 'retouched' it at all, though. It was merely a folk-tale in Middle-Earth, itself a part of the mythology he was writing. Why get rid of it? I like it for the fact that it is just a story of Middle-Earth, and that it shows a lot about the status and place of the mysterious Druedain in Brethil.

[tinewelt]

I find it sad that someone has to use comments such as that to make their point known. Contrary to the point, I am not unfortunate in anyway. If you had taken the time to look, I am a history major. I doubt very seriously that I "believe" this really took place. What I am refering to, is that I wish the story had really "taken" place in a "make believe" world. I think it adds to the curiosity and the overall presence of the stories.

But within the context of Middle-Earth, I can see no reason to particularly want this story to be 'real'

Did it not occur to you that when I say such that I am not speaking of the "context"(make believe world) of middle earth as well? why assume that I do not? Your opinion is very well appreciated and its obvious you know more about Tolkiens works than I. I always read all of your posts because they are always insightful and usually correct. And you may very well be correct in this situation, but its not appreciated when you word it in the way you did.

~Namarie~

[tinewelt]

I would like to apologize about my previous post. I was having a horrible day with one of my professors and I was in no mood to be engaged in debate. Sorry Gwahir, my reaction to your post was too harsh for a simple statement like you made. Sorry for making an *** [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] of myself. Please continue to respond to my posts as you always have. thank you.

~Namarie~

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Well, as you seem to have realised, that post was in fact made in good humour. I am sorry if it wasn't taken as such =/; perhaps the word 'unfortunate' wasn't quite necessary, of course... I would never actually try to offend someone on the downs, or speak to anyone like that in a contemptous way. Not unless they are being stupid or innapropiate or something, anyway, which of course you weren't. (Therefore it's probably safe to assume that anything that might be taken the wrong way in my posts is simply (perhaps in this case misdirected? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]) lightheartedness.)

Thanks for following up though, I admit I would have got the wrong impression otherwise. Still. Again, an apology -- bad luck for your bad day, by the way.

[tinewelt]

Thanks for understanding [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I know you would never do something like that on purpose.

~Namarie~

[Gwaihir the Windlord]

Not at all, consider the matter closed.