Dragons on the moon?

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

This topic arises from a brief discussion I had a while ago with one of my LOTR-obssessed friends. Whether or not you take it seriously depends on whether you believe that Roverandom is linked to Middle-earth. It seems to me almost as if Roverandom is meant to be set in a later version of Middle-earth (as indeed is our world):

...imaginatively this 'history' is supposed to have taken place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet.

So, seeing as Roverandom is presumably set in our world, it may very well be assumed that in Roverandom we are dealing with a later version of Middle-earth itself.

With that established, we see that there are dragons on the moon in Roverandom:

All white dragons originally come from the moon, as you probably know...

The moon-dog did not know everything about the moon, as you see, or he would have known that this was the lair of the Great White Dragon...

So how did dragons get to the moon? We know that

[Morgoth] assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him

But dragons were not spirits, were they? And to get to the moon, dragons would have to pass through Ilmen, a place where "flesh unaided cannot endure".

So how did dragons get to the moon? Any ideas? Or is Roverandom not meant to be taken seriously?

---------------------------------------------
1. Letters, #165, page 220
2. Roverandom, page 32
3. same as above
4. The Silmarillion, page 117
5. The Silmarillion, page 349

[Lord of Angmar]

I don't think that Roverandom was not meant to be taken seriously, but I cannot conceive of how dragons coming from the moon would fit in with Middle Earth at all. If you have read the Silmarillion, then I am sure you know that in Middle Earth the moon is simply a light-bearing sphere that is driven across the earth in the opposite direction of the chariot of the Sun. I cannot see how dragons could come upon the moon or originate from the moon, which would have to be the case if Roverandom was meant to take place in the same existence (although, granted, at a different time) as Middle Earth.

I think all of Tolkien's other works were meant to be less realistic than those pertaining to Middle Earth. One might consider them to be Tolkien's 'fairy tales' told in Middle Earth, just as we have Tolkien's 'fairy tales' about Middle Earth.

[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Luthien_ Tinuviel]

I cannot conceive of how dragons coming from the moon would fit in with Middle Earth at all

I didn't mean dragons coming from the moon, I meant dragons going to it. It is, after all, somewhat conceivable, seeing as Morgoth sent "spirits of shadow" to assail the moon. But since dragons were beings of flesh, how did they get there?

I cannot see how dragons could come upon the moon or originate from the moon

Indeed, I did not intend to promote the view that dragons originated on the moon.

Perhaps I'm just toying with an idea which is of little consequence. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lord of Angmar]

Perhaps I'm just toying with an idea which is of little consequence.

Well sometimes speculation can be quite fun. After all, this is the site where people spend hours debating what things would be like if Faramir had been in the Fellowship instead of Boromir and how things would be different if Smaug had survived. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I don't think you'll find any definitive evidence to support or debate the idea that Roverandom has a basis in Middle Earth, but that doesn't make it any less interesting. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

I'm sure that what was meant by Morgoth sending spirits to assail Tilion was just a couple of loony gits chasing around after the Moon for a while, with Tilion shooting his little heart out at them with that dandy silver bow of his. There is a similar legend in Norse mythology, except this time around, there are giants in the shapes of wolves chasing after the Sun and Moon, and one day, right before Ragnarok, they will catch up to them and swallow them.

[Diamond18]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpreted the creation story in the Silmarillion as being at least partly a myth, that is, when the story of the sun and moon is described in the Silmarillion, it's a matter of the Elves speaking figuratively or using their imaginations to explain what they can see from the ground. I assumed that the moon, in reality, is just the same as our moon. But I don't know if that makes the idea of dragons on the moon any more possible for the books other than Roverandom. Considering that the moon does not support life, even if you can stand on it... I wouldn't think so.

[Lord of Angmar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I interpreted the creation story in the Silmarillion as being at least partly a myth

I agree that is does seem mythical, and I think perhaps Professor Tolkien thought of it more as a creation myth, although he obviously did not mean for the Valar or Iluvatar or the Themes to be myths. I consider myself a spiritual person, with some Christian beliefs, but I do not believe in the Creationist theory that God created Earth in Seven Days, etc. I think the story of the creation of Sun and Moon is similar to that, a story that some may take seriousy and some may take as myth.

If it is but a myth told by the Elves, then I suppose that Roverandom could in some way be tied up with Ea and Middle Earth.