Why is the Silmarillion map incomplete? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Sauron 666 · 08-03-2003, 12:14 PM

I realize it could be because Tolkein didn't supply enough descriptions of the northern lands to enable them to be transmit into a map. But then again it doesn't strike me that Angband or Utumno is given any more descriptions as to its location than say Nogrod, Gondolin, Doriath, etc which are in the map. Is it due to this?

(edited by moderator because of offensive content)

[ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ]

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 08-04-2003, 01:21 AM

Lucky you, I say. In my Sil edition there's no map at all [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
Even though I have read UT and Sil twice I have no clear image on my head where are all the places like Amon rûdh or Doriath.

It's maybe because it's published by (sorry, is this a wrong term?) Christopher Tolkien and there might have been several versions about maps and so on. Maybe he didn't know which one was the latest.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 08-04-2003, 01:55 AM

Actually, there were maps of this region drawn by Tolkien himself; however, the ones I have seen are all very rudimentary and in most cases from an early stage of development.

You are right, though -- the northern coastlines of Middle-Earth are something I have always vaguely wondered about. The regions are adequately described, though -- which would in fact make it apparently easy to draw a map about, really -- although not much of importance was ever really there.

Apart from Angband, of course. Angband (originally an outlier of Utumno, which you mentioned, although the lands in that region appear to have warped and changed after the War of the Powers) is pretty well described; a map isn't really needed, although the fact that it is positioned about a millimetre above the map given in the Silm is slightly irritating. It is true, not much more effort would have been needed to draw it in.

Have a look at here., though. By the look of it it might well be authentic... hmm, slightly exagerated drawing of Thangorodrim though, but gives a damn good idea of what it was meant to look like. You can see that the coast come in not too far North of Angband; I think this probably holds true for much of that missed from the North of Middle-Earth, so that while it's a shame we aren't acutally missing too much.

You can find quite a few interesting maps on the net, although, as I said, nearly all of these show JRRT's world in it's early conceptual state.

Hmmm, it would indeed be interesting if we could indeed come up with a mapped greater Middle-Earth than the one we've got now. Unless other maps that are adaptable do exist, C. Tolkien is probably the only person that could help in this, unless further 'conjectural' mapping was done independantly. I must admit, though, that there is something uncomfortable about the prospect of doing this. =/

Edit for dancing spawn's benefit: try google-image-searching to find your map (or any other pic you'd care to obtain, actually). You can't do without a map of Beleriand, you know [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]. You'd better take a look here: Map of Beleriand from back of Silmarillion.

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

the real findorfin · 08-04-2003, 03:47 AM

If I'm not mistaken, Angband is supposed to lie west of Utumno to guard Morgoth's lands from the sea. Putting Angband where we think it is (shown on the map given above) then Utumno must be very far off to the east else the Valar could have easily destroyed Angband when they destroyed Utumno.

This means that Morgoth obviously envisioned a much larger scope for his plans ie. putting Utumno more to the middle of the world. These never seemed to materialise properly, except for the domination of the easterlings (alright that is quite a lot) but there were never signs of orcish domination as in Beleriand. I wonder what his plans would have held in store for the rest of the world?

Another thing, I presume Utumno must have been massive to turn Angband (in the Valar's eyes) into nothing more than a glorified watchtower?

dancing spawn of ungoliant · 08-04-2003, 05:06 AM

Oh, thank You so much Gwaihir! Your maps helped a lot!

Finwe · 08-04-2003, 08:23 AM

Well, we have no idea how big Utumno actually is. The actual size of the place was never adequately described. If Balrogs could hide in the deepest places of Utumno, then it has to be a really big place. I imagine that the Host of the West was very very big, so if they passed over some of the hiding places of these Balrogs and Minions, Utumno had to have been very big and convoluted.

Ailios · 08-04-2003, 12:00 PM

The reason Thangorodrim and the Iron mountains were not on the Silmarillion map was because CT was not sure exactly where to place them. The source map he used (HoME V) didn't agree with the description found in later texts. Angband was built behind the Iron mountains as was Utumno. The location of Utumno is shown in one of the Ambarkanta maps where it is north of the Blue mountains.

lore_master · 08-07-2003, 12:47 PM

one of the best books you can get is The Atlas of Middle Earth by:karan wyn fonstad.

it is a great help for maps, descriptions of places, battle stats and more

Gorwingel · 08-08-2003, 02:23 PM

But does that book have descriptions of maps from the Sil? I thought it only had maps from the time of the War of the Ring.

piosenniel · 08-08-2003, 07:06 PM

The new edition, 1991, of The Atlas of Middle-earth by Fonstad was expanded from the first edition by the publication of HoME. It covers from the First Age through the beginnings of the Fourth.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 08-09-2003, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Oh, thank You so much Gwaihir! Your maps helped a lot!

Well, actually they weren't mine you know. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I found them on Google; yes, they are quite good.

Findorfin, Angband in the days of Utumno was in fact more than a 'watchtower'. It was an outpost. Utumno would have been significantly bigger, of course, but not neccessarily that much bigger than Angband was in the Beleriand wars; Angband would itself, having been now made the primary stronghold of Melkor instead of an outlier, have presumably grown in its rebuilding.

piosenniel · 08-09-2003, 01:12 AM

Gwaihir's map: HERE is from Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth - one of several maps in that section on Beleriand and the lands to the north.

Gwaihir the Windlord · 08-09-2003, 01:34 AM

Mmmm, sounds like it might be quite a valuable piece, this Middle-Earth atlas. Outof interest, does it include maps of the Undying Lands at all? (I already have one or two of them, but I'd be interested in clarifying on them.)

piosenniel · 08-09-2003, 01:52 AM

Circles of the World

M-e before the 1st Age

1st Age M-e

This isn't from the Atlas - M-e / Valinor

Fonstad also has a map of Valinor and a text section on its coast and the Pelori, and the dwellings. Can't find that on the internet.

[ August 09, 2003: Message edited by: piosenniel ]

Gwaihir the Windlord · 08-09-2003, 02:00 AM

I'll probably end up getting the book itself. Thanks for introducing it to me, by the way. =]

Novberaid · 08-09-2003, 11:53 AM

If you want maps pick up a copy of The Atlas of Middle-Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad. I keep it close for handy reference whenever reading any of JRRT's works.

08-03-2003, 12:14 PM	#1
Sauron 666 Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 59	Why is the Silmarillion map incomplete? I realize it could be because Tolkein didn't supply enough descriptions of the northern lands to enable them to be transmit into a map. But then again it doesn't strike me that Angband or Utumno is given any more descriptions as to its location than say Nogrod, Gondolin, Doriath, etc which are in the map. Is it due to this? (edited by moderator because of offensive content) [ August 03, 2003: Message edited by: Estelyn Telcontar ] __________________ Ash Nazg Durbatuluk Ash Nazg Gimbatul Ash Nazg Thrakatuluk Arg Burzum-Ishi Krimpatul

08-04-2003, 01:21 AM	#2
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,234	Lucky you, I say. In my Sil edition there's no map at all [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Even though I have read UT and Sil twice I have no clear image on my head where are all the places like Amon rûdh or Doriath. It's maybe because it's published by (sorry, is this a wrong term?) Christopher Tolkien and there might have been several versions about maps and so on. Maybe he didn't know which one was the latest. __________________ Fenris Wolf

08-04-2003, 03:47 AM	#4
the real findorfin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 514	If I'm not mistaken, Angband is supposed to lie west of Utumno to guard Morgoth's lands from the sea. Putting Angband where we think it is (shown on the map given above) then Utumno must be very far off to the east else the Valar could have easily destroyed Angband when they destroyed Utumno. This means that Morgoth obviously envisioned a much larger scope for his plans ie. putting Utumno more to the middle of the world. These never seemed to materialise properly, except for the domination of the easterlings (alright that is quite a lot) but there were never signs of orcish domination as in Beleriand. I wonder what his plans would have held in store for the rest of the world? Another thing, I presume Utumno must have been massive to turn Angband (in the Valar's eyes) into nothing more than a glorified watchtower? __________________ Legends of Middle Earth

08-04-2003, 05:06 AM	#5
dancing spawn of ungoliant Mischievous Candle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: So near to Russia, so far from Japan, quite a long way from Cairo, lots of miles from Vietnam. Posts: 1,234	Oh, thank You so much Gwaihir! Your maps helped a lot! __________________ Fenris Wolf

08-04-2003, 08:23 AM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Well, we have no idea how big Utumno actually is. The actual size of the place was never adequately described. If Balrogs could hide in the deepest places of Utumno, then it has to be a really big place. I imagine that the Host of the West was very very big, so if they passed over some of the hiding places of these Balrogs and Minions, Utumno had to have been very big and convoluted. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

08-04-2003, 01:55 AM	#3
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	Actually, there were maps of this region drawn by Tolkien himself; however, the ones I have seen are all very rudimentary and in most cases from an early stage of development. You are right, though -- the northern coastlines of Middle-Earth are something I have always vaguely wondered about. The regions are adequately described, though -- which would in fact make it apparently easy to draw a map about, really -- although not much of importance was ever really there. Apart from Angband, of course. Angband (originally an outlier of Utumno, which you mentioned, although the lands in that region appear to have warped and changed after the War of the Powers) is pretty well described; a map isn't really needed, although the fact that it is positioned about a millimetre above the map given in the Silm is slightly irritating. It is true, not much more effort would have been needed to draw it in. Have a look at here., though. By the look of it it might well be authentic... hmm, slightly exagerated drawing of Thangorodrim though, but gives a damn good idea of what it was meant to look like. You can see that the coast come in not too far North of Angband; I think this probably holds true for much of that missed from the North of Middle-Earth, so that while it's a shame we aren't acutally missing too much. You can find quite a few interesting maps on the net, although, as I said, nearly all of these show JRRT's world in it's early conceptual state. Hmmm, it would indeed be interesting if we could indeed come up with a mapped greater Middle-Earth than the one we've got now. Unless other maps that are adaptable do exist, C. Tolkien is probably the only person that could help in this, unless further 'conjectural' mapping was done independantly. I must admit, though, that there is something uncomfortable about the prospect of doing this. =/ Edit for dancing spawn's benefit: try google-image-searching to find your map (or any other pic you'd care to obtain, actually). You can't do without a map of Beleriand, you know [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]. You'd better take a look here: Map of Beleriand from back of Silmarillion. [ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Gwaihir the Windlord ]

08-04-2003, 12:00 PM	#7
Ailios Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Forochel Posts: 28	The reason Thangorodrim and the Iron mountains were not on the Silmarillion map was because CT was not sure exactly where to place them. The source map he used (HoME V) didn't agree with the description found in later texts. Angband was built behind the Iron mountains as was Utumno. The location of Utumno is shown in one of the Ambarkanta maps where it is north of the Blue mountains. __________________ Ailios

08-07-2003, 12:47 PM	#8
lore_master Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Valhalla Posts: 116	one of the best books you can get is The Atlas of Middle Earth by:karan wyn fonstad. it is a great help for maps, descriptions of places, battle stats and more __________________ As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think

08-08-2003, 02:23 PM	#9
Gorwingel Beholder of the Mists Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Northwest... for now Posts: 1,419	But does that book have descriptions of maps from the Sil? I thought it only had maps from the time of the War of the Ring. __________________ Wanted - Wonderfully witty quote that consists of pure brilliance

08-08-2003, 07:06 PM	#10
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	The new edition, 1991, of The Atlas of Middle-earth by Fonstad was expanded from the first edition by the publication of HoME. It covers from the First Age through the beginnings of the Fourth. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

08-09-2003, 01:12 AM	#12
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Gwaihir's map: HERE is from Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth - one of several maps in that section on Beleriand and the lands to the north. __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

08-09-2003, 01:34 AM	#13
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	Mmmm, sounds like it might be quite a valuable piece, this Middle-Earth atlas. Outof interest, does it include maps of the Undying Lands at all? (I already have one or two of them, but I'd be interested in clarifying on them.)

08-09-2003, 01:52 AM	#14
piosenniel Desultory Dwimmerlaik Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Pickin' flowers with Bill the Cat..... Posts: 7,779	Circles of the World M-e before the 1st Age 1st Age M-e This isn't from the Atlas - M-e / Valinor Fonstad also has a map of Valinor and a text section on its coast and the Pelori, and the dwellings. Can't find that on the internet. [ August 09, 2003: Message edited by: piosenniel ] __________________ Eldest, that’s what I am . . . I knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.

08-09-2003, 02:00 AM	#15
Gwaihir the Windlord Essence of Darkness Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Evermore Posts: 1,420	I'll probably end up getting the book itself. Thanks for introducing it to me, by the way. =]

08-09-2003, 11:53 AM	#16
Novberaid Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Mirkwood Forest Posts: 45	If you want maps pick up a copy of The Atlas of Middle-Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad. I keep it close for handy reference whenever reading any of JRRT's works. __________________ By the starlit mere of Cuivienen, they rose from the sleep of Iluvatar