Were there any "evil" women? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Daisy Sandybanks · 03-12-2002, 11:04 AM

Maybe its just me and I have over looked some characters (like I usually do), but were there any "evil" or "bad" women in the books?
I know that there was Shelob, but she was a gigantic spider, then I guess there was Lobelia Sackville Baggins who I guess you could call "bad" or just plain mean and nasty. But besides those two, was there anyone else?

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-12-2002, 11:28 AM

Interesting point, Daisy - there is one evil woman who is just mentioned in LotR and briefly explained in the Unfinished Tales: Queen Beruthiel. Her cats, which spied for her, were legendary.
Other than that, I don't recall reading of any bad girls - even Lobelia turned good at the end of the story! Apparently Tolkien had quite a high opinion of women!

The Squatter of Amon Rûdh · 03-12-2002, 03:18 PM

Tar Ancalime in UT isn't exactly Snow White either. She's not quite evil, though; more egocentric.

Starbreeze · 03-12-2002, 03:34 PM

My friends and I were discussing this - there are barely any women at all - as for evil ones...shelob is bad... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Lush · 03-12-2002, 04:47 PM

What can I say? Tolkien certainly seemed to have women on a pretty high pedestal-at least in the realm of literature.
Well, Galadriel certainly had the potential to be evil.

Mhoram · 03-12-2002, 04:58 PM

In one of the many accounts of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin he mentions the evil easterling women he had known when he was held captive early in life.

VanimaEdhel · 03-12-2002, 06:07 PM

You said Galadriel had the POTENTIAL for evil...well, I am sure that ALL the women did, as all of us do! (just wanted to say that)

Daegwenn · 03-12-2002, 08:40 PM

Thuringwethil wasn't your average lady...in fact, she was a vampire and Maia who was Sauron's messenger because she was able to change shapes into a bat with iron claws.

~~Daegwenn

Tigerlily Gamgee · 03-12-2002, 09:47 PM

What about Ungoliant (I think I spelt it right) - the female in spider form in the Silmarillion, she was pretty evil if you ask me!

Kalimac · 03-12-2002, 10:46 PM

Darn, got here too late. The only ones I could think of were Tar-Ancalime and Queen Beruthiel (at least among the humans or near-humans). And they aren't even in LOTR proper, like Shelob (and Lobelia, though Lobelia is so far removed from Shelob that I hesitate to even mention them together). Though when you get right down to it, proportionally that would be about right; most of the venues of LOTR are extremely masculine - in a society like that, there just aren't going to be a lot of women battling at Helm's Deep or hanging out in the Prancing Pony. They just aren't in the same venues as the main characters and so don't have any opportunities to be evil, except for Galadriel. Maybe Tolkien did have women on a pedestal, or maybe there just wasn't room for an evil woman in the story - can you imagine where to fit one in? Somehow making an evil female consort for Saruman or Sauron doesn't seem quite right. What would she *do* anyway?

obloquy · 03-12-2002, 11:03 PM

Where is it written that Thuringwethil was a Maia?

Lush · 03-13-2002, 04:52 PM

Quote:

You said Galadriel had the POTENTIAL for evil...well, I am sure that ALL the women did, as all of us do! (just wanted to say that)

Yes, but Galadriel was in the position to wreak way more havoc than your average femme fatale.

Kuruharan · 03-14-2002, 06:47 PM

Quote:

She's not quite evil, though; more egocentric.

But isn't that sort of the heart of it? Desiring greater glory for yourself and such like? That certainly seems to be where Melkor made his mistake, trying to enlarge his role and grandure.

Just a random thought... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Aralaithiel · 03-14-2002, 06:58 PM

I wouldn't equate egocentricity with evil. Just misplaced priorities. However, everyone really tends to put themselves first, because most beings wish to do what will benefit them the most. If helping others benefits more than destroying others, then the being is considered "good". OTOH, if destroying others benefits more than helpinng, then the being is considered "evil".

Man, I really am waxing philosophical tonight, aren't I? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

03-12-2002, 11:04 AM	#1
Daisy Sandybanks Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: California Posts: 101	Were there any "evil" women? Maybe its just me and I have over looked some characters (like I usually do), but were there any "evil" or "bad" women in the books? I know that there was Shelob, but she was a gigantic spider, then I guess there was Lobelia Sackville Baggins who I guess you could call "bad" or just plain mean and nasty. But besides those two, was there anyone else? __________________ Knowlege is power. Power corrupts. Study hard. Be evil.

03-12-2002, 11:28 AM	#2
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Interesting point, Daisy - there is one evil woman who is just mentioned in LotR and briefly explained in the Unfinished Tales: Queen Beruthiel. Her cats, which spied for her, were legendary. Other than that, I don't recall reading of any bad girls - even Lobelia turned good at the end of the story! Apparently Tolkien had quite a high opinion of women! __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-12-2002, 03:18 PM	#3
The Squatter of Amon Rûdh Spectre of Decay Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Bar-en-Danwedh Posts: 2,178	Tar Ancalime in UT isn't exactly Snow White either. She's not quite evil, though; more egocentric. __________________ Man kenuva métim' andúne?

03-12-2002, 03:34 PM	#4
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	My friends and I were discussing this - there are barely any women at all - as for evil ones...shelob is bad... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

03-12-2002, 04:47 PM	#5
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	What can I say? Tolkien certainly seemed to have women on a pretty high pedestal-at least in the realm of literature. Well, Galadriel certainly had the potential to be evil. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-12-2002, 04:58 PM	#6
Mhoram Dead and Loving It Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: The land of fast cars and loud guitars. Posts: 361	In one of the many accounts of Tuor and his coming to Gondolin he mentions the evil easterling women he had known when he was held captive early in life.

03-12-2002, 06:07 PM	#7
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,461	You said Galadriel had the POTENTIAL for evil...well, I am sure that ALL the women did, as all of us do! (just wanted to say that) __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

03-12-2002, 08:40 PM	#8
Daegwenn Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Lothlórien Posts: 82	Thuringwethil wasn't your average lady...in fact, she was a vampire and Maia who was Sauron's messenger because she was able to change shapes into a bat with iron claws. ~~Daegwenn __________________ "And still of a winter’s night, they say, when the wind is in the trees, When the moon is a ghostly galleon tossed upon cloudy seas, When the road is a ribbon of moonlight over the purple moor, A highwayman comes riding— Riding—Riding— A highwayman comes riding, up to the old inn-door. Over the cobbles he clatters and clangs in the dark inn-yard. And he taps with his whip on the shutters, but all is locked and barred. He whistles a tune to the window, and who should be waiting there But the landlord’s black-eyed daughter, Bess, the landlord’s daughter, Plaiting a dark red love-knot into her long black hair" Highwayman Alfred Noyes

03-12-2002, 09:47 PM	#9
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	What about Ungoliant (I think I spelt it right) - the female in spider form in the Silmarillion, she was pretty evil if you ask me! __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

03-12-2002, 10:46 PM	#10
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Darn, got here too late. The only ones I could think of were Tar-Ancalime and Queen Beruthiel (at least among the humans or near-humans). And they aren't even in LOTR proper, like Shelob (and Lobelia, though Lobelia is so far removed from Shelob that I hesitate to even mention them together). Though when you get right down to it, proportionally that would be about right; most of the venues of LOTR are extremely masculine - in a society like that, there just aren't going to be a lot of women battling at Helm's Deep or hanging out in the Prancing Pony. They just aren't in the same venues as the main characters and so don't have any opportunities to be evil, except for Galadriel. Maybe Tolkien did have women on a pedestal, or maybe there just wasn't room for an evil woman in the story - can you imagine where to fit one in? Somehow making an evil female consort for Saruman or Sauron doesn't seem quite right. What would she do anyway? __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-12-2002, 11:03 PM	#11
obloquy Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: WA Posts: 941	Where is it written that Thuringwethil was a Maia?

03-14-2002, 06:58 PM	#14
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	I wouldn't equate egocentricity with evil. Just misplaced priorities. However, everyone really tends to put themselves first, because most beings wish to do what will benefit them the most. If helping others benefits more than destroying others, then the being is considered "good". OTOH, if destroying others benefits more than helpinng, then the being is considered "evil". Man, I really am waxing philosophical tonight, aren't I? [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"