Why didn't Denethor...

[Novlamothien]

... like Faramir?
This is a question that has been on my mind for a while. As far as I can remember the books don't really say much, is there anything in HoMe that tells us?

Also, did anyone else forget that Tolkien has Boromir mention his brother in the Council of Elrond, and then was really suprised when Faramir pops up? Or is it just me?

Namarie

[HCIsland]

I think Faramir's trust of Gandalf was a big part of it. Also, we need to remember that the Denethor we see is the Denethor weighed down by despair after who knows how many looks into the Palantir. He's lost his eldest son already and, from his skewed perspective, his other son respects more the dubious council of a wizard than his father's.

H.C.

[ July 29, 2003: Message edited by: HCIsland ]

[King_Elendil]

Also, Faramir saw the bigger picture. Denethor and Boromir could only see beyond Gondor.

[Meela]

I read that it had something to do with his mother. Something about Denethor blaming Faramir for her death? I may just be remembering wrongly though.

[Dancing_Hobbit]

I think it's just that Denethor doesn't understand Faramir. What Denethor values most about Borimir is his strength and skill as a warior. He is stubborn, outspoken, and charismatic. He solves problems by strength and the most obvious method. He reminds me a lot of Richard the Lion Heart. This is the way Denethor was in his youth, and this is what he values. Faramir, however, is very different. He is quieter and more thoughtful. He is a good warior, but is also interested in knowledge and lore. He is more of an introvert wheras Boromir is and extrovert. He has his own sort of charisma, but it comes more from understanding his men and seeming almost to be one of them. Denethor doesn't understand that Faramir's way is as good as Borimir's. Also, since Borimir was always the son he understood better and was closer to, when he dies Denethor blames it partially on Faramir for not having gone in his stead. Denethor does love Faramir, he just doesn't quite realise it. He also needs to take his anger and sorrow at Boromir's death out on somebody, and that person is Faramir. Anyway, that was my interpretation, others might interpret the characters differently. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Finwe]

I think Denethor resented Faramir for two reasons. First of all, Faramir listened to Gandalf too much for Denethor's liking. Yes, Faramir was an independent person, but he was also smart enough to realize that listening to Gandalf would come in handy some time, and that you just have to take advice from other people some time.

The second reason was that Faramir had inherited the Numenorean mental "abilities" that Denethor also had, but Boromir hadn't. It rankled in Denethor's mind that his least favorite son was more "favored" than his favorite.

[tinewelt]

Boromir was obviously Denethors favorite, but in the end I believe Denethor finally realized his mistakes and folly. I do not have the book on hand, (I'm at work [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] ) but when Denethor says

I have sent my son forth, unthanked, unblessed out needlessly into peril and now he lies with poison in his veins.

and also this line

Nay, I will not come down, I must stay beside my son. He might still speak before the end.

So, through most all of the books, it is Boromir who is the chosen son, but I do believe that in the end Denethor admitted to himself that Faramir was the more lordly and "kingly" (although they were stewards), and that he had made a huge mistake. Thats obviously what fueled his rage in the "Pyre of Denethor". Boromir's death did take a huge toll on Denethor, but if Faramir had not been injured to the point of death (as Denethor percieved) I do not believe that Denethor's will would have broken. He might have went on to fight. The factor of the ring did play a huge factor though, because he felt that they could not win without the ring in their position. But I believe Faramir's situation pushed him over the top.

~Namarie~

[Lily Bracegirdle]

I have a couple of theories:

1) As others have said, Faramir was a friend of Gandalf. Now, why should this make Denethor unhappy? Beacause Gandalf is also the friend of Aragorn, who, under the name of Thorongil, made a great name for himself in Gondor when Denethor was a youngster. Denethor's father, Ecthelion, may have actually preferred Thorongil to Denethor. Denethor eventually came to suspect that "Thorongil" was Isuldur's heir, who would supplant him as ruler of Gondor (with help from Gandalf). Around this time, Thorongil conveniently left Gondor.

Now, Denethor and Boromir both felt that they could do very well without the King ever coming back. Their family had taken good care of Gondor for years and years, so why shouldn't they remain rulers forever?

Denethor had something of a seige mentality from living so near Mordor, so in his book you were either "with him or against him." Denethor probably saw Faramir's close friendship with Gandalf as a betrayal. To put it simply, Denethor thought "If you like Gandalf, you're his ally, and therefore a Royalist. That means you'll give up Gondor to Aragorn and depose your own father, who has worked so hard to keep this kingdom together. Ungrateful, treasonous wretch!"

2) Denethor and Faramir were very much alike in their intellect and intuition, much more so than Denethor and Boromir. And like things repel each other. Also, I get the feeling Boromir would have done whatever Denethor wanted, while Faramir would have thought about it and challenged his father more before obeying.

Of course, Denethor actually loved Faramir very much, but that didn't keep the two of them from fighting and misunderstanding each other just like any other father and son.

What do you think?

-Lily

[Novlamothien]

Thank you all so much for your advice, especially Lilly Bracegirdle, who helped me understand why Denethor didn't like Gandalf so much. I was just about to ask that.
Thanks again

Namarie

[The Saucepan Man]

There's a good section on Denethor and his relationship with his sons in Appendix A to LotR. It backs up most of what people have been saying here. For example:

Boromir, five years the elder, beloved by his father, was like to him in face and pride, but little else. Rather he was a man after the sort of King Earnur of old, taking no wife and delighting chiefly in arms; fearless and strong, but caring little for lore, save the tales of the old battles. Faramir the younger was like him in looks but otherwise in mind. He read the hearts of men as shrewdly as his father, but what he read moved him sooner to pity than to scorn. He was gentle in bearing, and a lover of lore and of music, and therefore by many in those days his courage was judged less than his brother's. But it was not so, except that he did not seek glory in danger without a purpose. He welcomed Gandalf at such times as he came to the City, and learned what he could from his wisdom; and in this as in many other matters he displeased his father.

Lily provided a great explanation of why Faramir's friendship with Gandalf might have displeased his father so. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

There is also a very interseting section on Denethor in The Palantiri in UT. I particularly liked this:

It may be noted that the effects [of the Palantiri] were different. Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his victory, or no longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons for this difference were no doubt that in the first place Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. He was proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny to lead them in this desparate time.

Sometime it is all too easy to dismiss Denethor as an unsympathetic character. But this passage reminds us that he was a great man brought low by the tragic events leading up to his death. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Måns]

What we easily forget her is that Boromir was the son most unlike his father, he showed clearly that he was quite different. Faramir was of the purest Numenorean line, just as Boromir, but the altter was it only in the blood, finding delight in the arrow for it's swiftness was not Numenorean, nor was the egoistic feats we see in Boromir, just as his ignoring of lore and wisdom. I think we see a slight and maybe unconscious notion of self criticism by Denethor, he is, outspoekenly in the UT and LotR, more like his scond son, still he wants the one unlike to him to be Steward? He realized that his rule had been a failure, the waning power of Gondor and so on, and he thought he knew that his kind of rulers' time was gone, that it was time for swords and strongwilled people, not consideration, council and wisdom.

Måns

[Lily Bracegirdle]

Hi, Mans and Dancing Hobbit! A belated welcome to the Downs! Please enjoy being dead.

I think you've brought up a good point. Maybe Denethor didn't like himself very much. If Ecthelion preferred Thorongil (someone who did great deeds of arms) to his own son, how would that have made Denethor feel? Probably like "there must be something wrong with me." It would make sense for Denethor to grow up and like his warrior-mentality son (who he believes is more like Ecthelion's ideal) more than he likes the son that reminds him of himself.

Denethor is always boasting about his knowledge and lineage. Could it have been because he was overcompensating for feelings of unworthiness?

Just some psychobabble to lighten your day.

Cheers!

-Lily

[Envinyatar]

Here is an excellent discussion of Denethor:

The Fall of Denethor

which might shed some light on the forces that drove this most complex man.

[Måns]

CROTTE! I just posted a long and good post on Denethor and for once, I hadn't misplaced any letters. Well, got ot try to write what I remember.

I don't think that he felt unworthy, only that he had made the wrong decisions, he was too proud to see any such basic fault in himself. He sure recognized and admitted when he had been wrong, hence the talk about the drink he had made himself after Boromir's death. I think it was a sense of having failed, eh saw, in light of the past, that his government had been a failure, refering to Gondor's waning strength and unability to effectively reply to the blatant offences of Mordor. He thoguht that he and the preceding Stewards had been wisemen to a too great degree nad not decisive enoguh, but he always believed in military victory until the end. Thus he speaks about leaving the Stewards crown to his elder son, which I interpret as a wish of preserving the realm for Boromir who was a strengthy man who he thought could handle Mordor. He was, as we know, wrong, Sauron could not be defeated by force, and if it was so, the victory would have been no good since it could only have been with methods alien to good. He did not see that the preservation of Gondor and the Steward's reign could not come at any price. Denethor saw his fundamental failure as a failure of character only in some ways, he did not think himself unworthy, What he did was "realizing" that he was not the right kind of Steward fro these tiems and hoped for his son who was unlike him. While Faramir, who did posess an undoubtable courage and skill in leadership, was not the military commander his brother was, nor was he as confident. This deficit was "made up" by the fact that he was a totally superior scholar and wiseman. In Aragron, these virtues were combined, no wonder he was the one that became King!

Måns (This time with a not as good post or as few misplacements [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] )