the HoM-E/UT Society ~ following the Legendarium from c.1915 - 1972

[lindil]

I have been pondering starting HoM-E from the begining to the end, as per Aiwendil's highest recommendation (among other reasons). I have read alot in the final three books and in a very haphazard manner in the others.

Anyone else interested in joining in and commenting on what we find as we journey from the Cottage of Lost Play to Tal-Elmar?

Since the first 5 books of the History of Middle-Earth are available in mass mkt paperback pretty much anyone who wants to should be able to start and go quite a ways before the have to worry about any book that will cost more than $6.99 (in America at least).

OF course there is no time table to complete this, and no says you can not read anything else along the way. So don't be intimidated! [Well OK you can be intimidated by the footnote if you have seen them already [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]] but from the pov of my partial exsposure I guarantee you it is worth it.

btw, if you have not already browsed HoME abit this may not be the ideal introduction, though I think Aiwendil woudl strongly disagree.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I will start off [since I began the Cottage of Lost Play a couple of days ago] with the intersting note that a poem 'The Trees' was nearly included in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. It was a revision of one of his earliest poems 'Kortirion among the Trees' which went through several other revisions including one during the changeover from the Quenta Silmarillion work to the LotR in 1937 [that one is included], but anyway this final version (c. 1962).

I would love to see where the whole lost tales/Eriol/England idea had gone to by that time. Has anyone heard of a publishing of this poem?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another fascinating point is JRRT's early conceptions of the diminutive/fading Elves and that he still kept certain aspects of this as the concept of the Elves matured.

They continue to fade due to the fire of their spirit slowly consuming theor bodies, so they become more and more fea and less and less hroa.

[ April 10, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Son of Fire]

GREAT idea, I was going to start them a couple of months ago, but settled for letters and UT, but I'll head off to borders right now.

[Bruce MacCulloch]

I've already read HoM-E straight through at least once (Aiwendil is a very wise man), but I'm more than willing to give it another go.

As to the poem mentioned above, other than in The Book of Last Tales, it has bever seen the light of published day as far as I know.

[lindil]

That's the spirit Son of Fire!

Great bruce going for round 2!

I meant to say something about opening it up to repeaters.

I also have been pondering the inclusion of the published works as well, so it would be something like this:

I
II
III pt A
IV
the Hobbit
V - IX
LotR
Early 50's(from X,IIIb,XI,XII,UT, VT)
Late 50's (" ")
60's - 72 (" " + RGEO and AoTB)

Or something like that.

Of course one could get indefinetly fanatical about it, but that should be a rough outline of it all.

[alaklondewen]

lindil, you couldn't have picked a better time! I've been collecting HoME (in order) this semester, and I was planning on starting on The Book of Lost Tales shortly. I'm really looking forward to it.

[Silmarien]

Lindil, for the benefit of those like my self who are less read, could you please put the abbreviations in full just once? I've never before seen VT or RGEO.

I would also like to do this but I haven't seen History of Middle Earth anywhere except the library. And there it is hard to get them in order even if the library has them all anyway.

[mark12_30]

lindil, I've been trying to resist this idea & this thread-- but I did promise my husband I'd go out with him in the boat and read while he fished. I can flail at the black flies while I ponder Melkor's destruction of the lamps, and the exploits of Bingo.

Thanks for the order listing.

This is a stupid question (I'm sure) but does the published Sil fit into the list or is it covered in The War of the Jewels and such like anyway?

AoTB-- Angle On The Bow??? Oh, sorry, Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

RGEO.... uh... (squints)... VT??? My brain is in neutral this morning. Okay, off to find the answers... Here they are!
Acronym / abbreviation list here

lindil rocks-- as usual.

[ April 11, 2003: Message edited by: mark12_30 ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Lindil,

Count me in. I think this is a great idea. I do have all 12 volumes. Some I've read pieces of, and some just gone to for specific references. I've never done the whole thing in any logical order.

I'm wondering if you need to make the heading for this thread clearer? Maybe yes, maybe no?? I had no idea what you were doing here, until I happened to look on "Today's active topics" and spied Helen's reply.

sharon

[lindil]

Child I will happily make the heading clearer [that was the best/most intruiging ]I could come up with, and I already changed it once! Once it has 3,876 post I am sure it will catch on [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] regardless of the name.

So many takers! This looks to be a great long-running thread!

I also will happily say that the final version [c.1962]of 'The Trees of Kortirion' is in BoLT 1 p.38 HB

--VT ='s the Vinyar Tengwar journal found cheaply at 2$ per
here and has quite a few gems CJRT gave them that he could not or would not cram into HoM-E, and more is onthe way [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] .

RGEO = the road goes ever on.

gotta run

[ April 11, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[lindil]

I would also like to do this but I haven't seen History of Middle Earth anywhere except the library. And there it is hard to get them in order even if the library has them all anyway.

Well, I understand the main page has a 'store' and perhaps you could order through that, though my allegiances are torn between supporting the Downs through Amazon, and supporting all of the little bookstores on the edge of closing becaue of Amazon's 'offer discounts till we mankrupt them all, then we control the market' strategy.

But get em anyway you can! As I mentioned before 1-5 are all available at 6.99 each, and 6-8 are available as trade pb's for 14.oo or so each.

and by the time someone gets through all of those perhaps 10-12 will be available in at least trade PB.

[Annunfuiniel]

Well, this is my first time, I mean I haven't read any of the HoM-E series before. Hope I still can join the company? I just managed to hunt down a copy of the Lost Tales (part 1) from the library and now I'm off to read it. *takes a deep breath* I'm gonna make it through! Let's just hope my luck lasts in the future and the other books will be available in the library *fingers crossed*.

[lindil]

Annunfuiniel, of course those new to HoM-E/UT are welcome!

Though as I said above reading BoLT first may not be everyone's cup of tea. But if you have vol. I go for it.

Let us know what passages strike you
What strangeness perplexes you
What marvels leave you in awe...

Someone asked above where the published Silm fits in in all of this.

Well a few texts [Beren and Luthien, parts of Turin, etc] only occur in more or less their final form there. They were omitted from HoM-E due to reasons of space. So we will need to have recourse ot it, but not till we get to Lost Road (V) I think.

As to the other aspect o f that question that was mentioned, yes most of the Silm texts we will see in theor original pre-CJRT edited forms [some many times].

[lindil]

*gavel bangs thrice*

The society is now in session.

There is a rather common [but to my mind, no less true] esoteric idea that the begining of something contains the essence and [in microcosmic form] the entirety of the pattern to follow [though there are unpredictable hazard points, thank God].

The first chapter of the Book of Lost Tales is certainly an excellent case in point.

spoilers below ~~~ in case you want to begin the Series with a minimum of my spin on things


In addition to the original intro to the 'Silmarillion' cyle; the story of Eriol finding the 'Cottage of Lost Play' on Tol Eressea/England, and the subsequent revelation to Eriol of the Olore Malle, we already are given an early view of one of JRRT's 'goals', as I perceive it anyway.

This is the recurring theme of the joys of a community passing on their 'tales', and perhaps of no less import, the hospitality often surrounding it. I am thinking here of Rivendell, Sam reading to his kids [and anyone in the Shire who will listen], the Valar transmitting the Ainulindale [and indeed all of the History of Arda prior to the coming of the 3 kindreds to Aman], Finrod's welcoming [and undoubtedly teaching the clan of Beor] and even further back to the Avari [despite the oft-mentioned 'dark/wild' streak] teaching [some] Edain language and some rudimentary history and lore [and prob as sophisticated an 'survival-lore' as they trusted another culture with, or they could pick up.

All of this is foreshadowed or introduced in the very first few pages of the Lost Tales.

But the real treasure to me lies in the poems at the back of the chapter, especially the second sequence. Here CJRT gives us Kortirion of the Tree's in 3 versions dating from 1915, 1937 and c.1962.

And it is no minor poem!

'the Trees' as JRRT calls it when discussing it's possible [alas unrealised] inclusion in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil surveys three different treatments [all baring his innermost associations ]over the course of 50 years! of how he conceived of the Elves 'fading' and yet still abiding.

To me the state/sense of longing of the Eldar sprinkled throughout the Legendarium is given it's most detailed and personal treatment by JRRT. Equaly striking is CJRT's almost complete lack of commenting on this. Too close to home it seems.

It is also fascinating to note that even as late as the 60's he was still deeply holding the idea [at least in this poem] of the Eldar of Legendarium lingering still in England, a sort of Middle-Earth/England treatment of the Smith of Wooton Major idea.

In connection with this I want to share an utterly fascinating excerpt from
The Book of Herbal Wisdom by MAtthew Wood [and the title is no exaggerration at all]. But it will have to wait as the main part of my library is currently serving as guest room...

~~~

but there it is to me at any rate, the essence of the legendarium all contained in the first chapter of the Book of Lost Tales I

[Beren87]

I'm [of course] up!

Of course one could get indefinetly fanatical about it

And I just wanted to say, I've never seen him not be fanatical about anything Tolkien-related. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Sophia the Thunder Mistress]

Hm, I'd like to be in on this caper myself, but unfortunately, my body's currently in Indiana, and my copy of Lost Tales 1 is currently in Maine. This presents a problem (and like most college students, I just spent my last four dollars on laundry [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). I'll be following along on this thread though, and once I get my mom to mail it to me... count me in! I love this idea, Lindil... another great one [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Sophia

[alaklondewen]

Well, I finished The Cottage of Lost Play last night, and I am suprised at how much the home of Londo and Vaile reminds me of Rivendell, escpecially the room where the Great Fire is located. It has the same 'feel' as the Hall of Fire.

As a mother, I also felt concern for the children while I was reading it. I immediately thought of their parents' pain in losing their child. Of course, the children are in a wonderful, joyful place, but I can't help feel a little sorrow for the families left behind.

I will read the poems tonight, and tell you what I think, lindil.

[Annunfuiniel]

Let us know what passages strike you
What strangeness perplexes you
What marvels leave you in awe...

I don't know where to begin! I finished the first chapter yesterday but I seriously think that I should well read it again, straight through without checking the notes and such, to get a coherent picture. So much revelation in such a short chapter! Tolkien leaves me in awe...

For me this reading experience has already been a double pleasure: to follow the different trails of JRRT's thoughts during the writing process [especially in the different versions of the 'Trees of Kortirion'] is no less exiting than the stories themselves.
I must admit that I haven't been that great fan of poetry before but I seem to be learning new habits here; Tolkien's poems are simply enchanting!
From the 1937 version of the 'Trees':

(...)Immortal Elves, that singing fair and fey
Of vanished things that were, and could be yet,
Pass like a wind among the rustling trees,
A wave of bowing grass, and we forget
Their tender voices like wind-shaken bells
Of flowers, their gleaming hair like golden asphodels.

And this is from the final poem:

(...)Like lighted tapers in a darkened fane
The funeral candles of the Silver Wain
Now flare above the fallen year.
Winter is come. Beneath the barren sky
The Elves are silent. But they do not die!
Here waiting they endure the winter fell
And silence. Here I too will dwell;
Kortirion, I will meet the winter here.

Just to mention a few...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is a rather common [but to my mind, no less true] esoteric idea that the begining of something contains the essence and [in microcosmic form] the entirety of the pattern to follow [though there are unpredictable hazard points, thank God].

Hear, hear! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
It strikes me how far developed the mythology was in JRRT's mind at so early stage. Although it's interesting to note those ideas that were altered or totally rejected in later phases it's as fascinating to recognise the familiar elements, the backbone of his world.
So many things to say but I think I'll continue some other time. Thank you, lindil, for starting this thread; who knows how long it would otherwise have taken me to begin this reading process! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[lindil]

I've never seen him not be fanatical about anything Tolkien-related.

well Beren, I 'll try and takle that as a compliment [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Either way the afore mentioned/promised link is here:Elves in North Amereica ?

Annufuiniel posted:

I must admit that I haven't been that great fan of poetry before but I seem to be learning new habits here; Tolkien's poems are simply enchanting!

I had much the samer experience.

Tolkien's verses are oftent he lat thing I come to appreciate in a story, whether in LotR or elsewhere. I am finally learning to not fear the poems!

And in the acse of the Kortirion set of poems they are I think an essential and as yet untapped key to understanding Tolkien's Elves, one of the origins of his legendarium and indeed of his life. Carpenter who had access to these poems [it seems] totally failed to realize their intrinsic value and nature.

On to the original Ainulindale...

[ April 16, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[Beren87]

well Beren, I 'll try and takle that as a compliment

I would hope so, because it was one! Tolkien fanatics are my favorite people.

[lindil]

Read through the 'link' to the Ainulindale yesterday and the only thing that really struck me was the whole bizarre and 'soon' to disappear humour of Rumil and his annoyance at the impertinent bird in the garden.

[Rumil]

Birds Eh!

you can't trust em, thats what I say [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[lindil]

Lest anyone think this was a flash in the barrow... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

I just returned to my attempt at a HoM-E/UT read through.

I re-read the link between The Cottage of Lost Play and The Music of the Ainur.

A few more interesting(to me) notes than I perceived the last go around:

Again I am struck by the Cottage/Rivendell parallels. The descriptions and whole feel of the Cottage were to hinted at in The Hobbit, and explored more fully in FotR, and one senses the same sort of reverence in Eriol as in the 5 Hobbits that spend time at Imladris.

...to be a guest there a while seemd to him [Eriol] to be the fairest of all things.

The description of the lights in the hallway as Eriol is being led to his bed seem more than a little to be a foreshadowing or rather the first appearance of some form of the Feanorean Lamps of the later Tuor and Turin sagas.

These two guided him [Eriol] down the corridor of broidered stories ...until it brought them to a passage lit by small pendent lamps of coloured glasswhose swaying cast a spatter of bright hues upon the floors and hangings.

maybe I am reading to much into it.

A few passages of note I thought worth typing out and sharing...

Then slept Eriol, and through his dreams there came a music thinner and more pure than any he had heard before, and it was full of longing. Indeed it was as if pipes of silver or flutes of shape most slender-delicate uttered crystal notes and threadlike harmonies beneath the moon upon the lawns; and Eriol longed in his sleep for he knew not what.

This is exactly the kind of passage so common in Lost Tales. It contains elements to be later incorporated [the power and longing contained in elvish music in this case] but in a completely different context and often with the orignal protaginist [ the strangely named Tinfang Warble] soon to disappear never to return.

This along with many other points of vagueness and familiarity combined, give the Lost Tales a twin feeling of familiarity and strangeness.

I am greatly comforted by the fact that all of the bizzare names such as Tinfang Warble were soon to disappear from the Silmarillion. Every revision, became clearer and more pure. Till we have solid gold in the POst LotR era writings.

We soon after encounter for the first time Rumil, the great sage of Tirion, and he actually gives us some of the most humorous dialogue we will see in all of Lost Tales.

...have I not conned even the speeches of beasts, disdaining not the thin voices of voles and mice? - have I not cadged a stupid tune or two to hum of the speechless beetles? ... Wherefore is it that this morn I felt as Omar the Vala* who knows all tounges, as I hearkened to the blending of the voices of the birds comprehending each, recognising each well-loved tune, when tiripiti lirilla here comes a bird, and imp of Melko - but I weary you sir of, of babbling of songs and words.

* About Omar the Vala CJRT dryly remarks that 'he is a divinity without much substance'.

We also see our first glimpe of the existence and esoteric qualities of the speech of the Valar though it goes unnamed.


Also Eriol's preface to the Ainulindale is quite touching.

All in all it was a pleasent preface to the Ainulindale about to be told to the first mortal [ and of course it is [almost] the first version of the Ainulindale itself. And it is truly astounding just how clear and constant this Tale was to stay, almost certainly the least altered aspect of the entire Legendarium.

In very many ways Early Tolkien reminds me of early progressive rock. many of the themes are there that will be developed later, but there is not yet the same sureness of skill, and there is a distinct immaturity in phrasing that competes with the moments of brilliance.

It is also very curious to note how much more accepting I was of the quality of the work whenI first read it in 11th grade on the very week or so the Book of Lost Tales I came out.

[ July 18, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

I too have been reading from the later HoME books (Athrabeth, Dangweth Pengolodh - especially beautiful pieces of work) and had somehow feared BoLT (read the first few chapters of BoLT1 a couple months ago - but ended up dropping it) because it was just enough like the Published Sil that it might mingle too much with that in my mind, and I would be unable to look at and discuss the lastest writings without mixing in abandoned ideas. I was also reluctant because I just plain had more interest in the LQ and later essays as I viewed them as the truth whereas with BoLT I did not not.

But I haven't been reading Tolkien for long and my views and approach to HoME are fast changing. So just a few days ago I tried BoLT again and wow... how things have changed.

lindil, I agree with you about the essence of elvishness in that first chapter, and the humour of Rumil. Their garden encounter had me laughing hardily aloud. Not only that bit you quoted, but Rumil quoting Littleheart on his annoyance of the pronunciation of his father's name, and Littleheart was soon 'chirping Eldar like a lady of the Inwir'.

Ah... but there is nothing like elf dialog (for me) and Lost Tales is thick with it.

There is something raw but most charming about BoLT. For me it just hits close.
Anyhow I rushed through BoLT1 in a couple days and am now reading BoLT2 (read FoG several months ago though - was the first bit of HoME I ever read).

But even in my rushing, and after just one reading I find myself asking more of 'how could this be?' than I did with the Published Sil.

Iluvatar's words to the Valar in the Ainulindale of BoLT coupled with the later action of the Valar just don't make a lot of sense to me. Perhaps I am jumping ahead, but the Valar of BoLT leave me frustrated and unhappy with Manwe especially. Knowing that Iluvatar spoke those words to Melko infront of the Ainur just makes this worse. Here the Ainur should see what kind of a problem Melko is.

But even though BoLT seems less well-formed, or as lindil says 'pure' than the eventual Silmarillion, it has some amazing descriptive writing, and it brings more vivid imagingings of what it is being read at the moment than does the a lot of the later writings... for me, at least.

The other thing that strikes me about BoLT Ainulindale is the making clear that the Ainur have some kind of physical form. At least this is the impression I get, and the Later Ainulindales (Published Sil + HoME X) never gave me that impression at all, or if they did... it was the Published Sil upon first reading and was quickly done away with and I do not recall it.

Published Sil: 'Then the voices of the Ainur, like unto harps and lutes...'

BoLT: 'Then the Harpists, and the lutanists, the flautists and the pipers, the organs and the countless choirs of the Ainur...'

I am sure this is the main thing, and perhaps realy the only thing in The Music of the Ainur which gives me that impression.

One more thing:
CRT speaks of mediation in the Foreword, as well as depth of time. I guess some people miss mediation with the published Sil and though it never bothered me,(in fact I love it more than LotR)I find that I enjoy this new element very much in BoLT... probably especially because of the contact with elves.
I Do think that hearing these tales in this way is one of the major reasons that i say BoLT strikes close somehow... but I can't define it. I guess I just mean that I feel more close with the story, and nay not the tales but the tale-tellers. This combination of close mediation during the links between tales, contrast with the more distant and less personal nature of the tales themselfs, but together they work well to compliment the other - giving a strong sense of ages past.

One thing I love about the elves that I never hear anyone else mention is that because they are immortal, we as readers are somewhat along side them in being able to look back at the ages of this history. In this way the looking back brings almost a nostalga as happens when we look back at our own life, but not with real world history. So it is for me anyhow. BoLT makes much use of this.

[ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: Elda ]

[lindil]

Wonderful Elda! Welcome to the downs!

I am very glad you decided to join our little HoME UT society.

Yes the mediation aspect is something I did not miss in the Silm, and even though CJRT highlights it in the Intro I failed to really appreciate the depth of it impact on the story.

I do really enjoy the Aelfwine/Eriol aspect of the story, and was rather saddned when i heard that it was 'officially' replaced with the Bilbo Baggins theory of Silm origins. But that is jumaping 10 or so Volumes ahead...

Am taking Ainulindale [LT1] with me for a day or 2 so hopefully I will get through it by Mon.

Again welcome to the downs and the society Elda!

[ July 19, 2003: Message edited by: lindil ]

[lindil]

In slavish and flattering imitation of all of those Rivendell walkers, I have taken to tracking my HoM-/UT progress in my link [pitiful though it be] and really think everyone else should do the same! [img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

No - of course not, but I wonder if it was a common thing to see in links here at the downs, how great an impact it would have at getting people to explore HoME and UT which is imo one of the better rationals for the existence of the Downs itself!

[lindil]

OK after months of neglect I am back on track.


----------------------------------------

Chapter 2 and 3 from the Book of Lost Tales I
I am well into the beautiful descriptions of the mansions of the valar, and am struck yet again at how much was already so well developed in JRRT's mind at so early a date.

Most of the Names of the Valar, the general tone and nature of their work and personality. All of these was not only there but in greater detail than would ever appear again. The creation of the Two Trees is especially rich.

Any thoughts on which details of the Valar's homes would have survived re-introduction into the Legendarium and which were doomed? I have a hard time seeing

'that fair maiden Nessa wife of Tulkas bear goblets of the goodliest wine and cooling drinks among the players[of Tulkas perpetual atheletic games].

but who is to say!

Feedback on that would be most interesting.

I also wondered anbout Orome's halls which are dsecribed as

...wide and low, and skins and fells of great richness and price are stewn there without end upon the floor or hung upon the walls, and spears and bows and knives thereto. In the midst of each room and hall a living tree grows and holds up the roof, and it's bole is hung with trophies and with antlers.

Vana understandable steals away ' as often as she may'. I wonder why?

All perfectly in keeping thematically for a Huntsman of the Valar, but methinks it a trifle coarse.

And what of the whole idea of hunting for sport in the undying lands anyway?

[Aiwendil]

I think that the vivid descriptions of the more mythological events and the more personalized characterizations of the Valar are the things I most miss about the Lost Tales in the more developed mythology. The first time I read the Lost Tales I recall being quite caught up in what might be called the primitive beauty of the accounts.

I don't necessarily think that the accounts of the homes of the Valar are at odds with the later mythology in all regards. But I can understand why Tolkien dropped it. It is not quite in keeping with the more serious tone that the mythology later acquired. It is, as you say, "coarse" - and thus, I think, more like real mythologies.

I'm certainly glad that the legendarium later took on its more refined tone. But I think that an inevitable disadvantage is the loss of the earlier vivid description.