Strange Question: Mums? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Esmerelda the Elf-Girl · 03-20-2002, 06:56 PM

Ok, this may seem like a dopey little question, but it ahs been driving me crazy and i have been cross-referencing books all over the place: is legolas' mum or gimli's mum mentioned anywhere?!?! do those poor boys HAVE mums? ha ha, that sounds very strange, but i know their fathers were very important, so it seems as if their mums might have done something noteworthy...not that Tolkien is exactly famous for abundant important female characters. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] but not to say anything against the man! any help would be great, though i kind of doubt there is any to be had.

[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Esmerelda the Elf-Girl ]

alaklondewen · 03-20-2002, 07:14 PM

I'm speaking off the top of my head, but the only mothers I recall are Belladonna Took (Bilbo's) and Galadriel (Arwen's). I think patriarchy is the way of the families in Middle Earth.

-----------------------------------

"At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending. Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away!"

Rosa Underhill · 03-20-2002, 09:04 PM

Galadriel wasn't Arwen's mom; Arwen's mom is Celebrian. Galdriel was her grandma. I don't recall ever hearing about Legolas or Gimli's mothers, though. I know they had them (obviously) but I don't think they've been mentioned. The only mention of any female dwarves is when Tolkien was saying something about the fact that they have beards, too.

Lush · 03-20-2002, 09:17 PM

Hey! Aragorn had a "mum", and the appendix implies that he really loved her, and that fate was not very kind to her.
I guess you can say I take what I can get when it comes to Tolkien's females.

twinkle · 03-20-2002, 09:49 PM

well at least we know Aragorn's mother's name.... Gilraen.....
which is more than i could find about Gimli and Legolas' mothers....sorry [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

twinkle

Kalimac · 03-20-2002, 11:30 PM

Yes, Legolas and Gimli do seem to be singularly free of the nagging thought that they should really be writing home to mother and letting her know how they're doing [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. But no, I don't think they're ever mentioned - Tolkien says specifically that only Dwarf-woman named in history is Dis, mother of Fili and Kili, so that leaves Gloin's spouse somewhat out of things, wherever she is. And I'm not sure, but Thranduil's Queen *might* be mentioned somewhere in "The Hobbit" - if she is, though, it's nothing more than a glancing reference, she's certainly not named.

The only other mother I can think of who hasn't been mentioned yet (and who has a story, not just a name in the family trees) is Primula Brandybuck, and of course she's dead even before Page 1. Sam's mother is presumably deceased (at least, I hope she is, considering that the Gaffer is being looked after by the Widow Rumble). Oh yes, and Mrs. Cotton is definitely the motherly type [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

I don't know if this particular lack-of-motherliness has so much to do with Tolkien not including women in his stories (though that certainly didn't help) as in the fact that most adventure stories tend to involve characters who are at a fairly loose end and don't have too many obligations or ties at home, mostly because they're in a better position to take a sudden change of circumstance without it having repercussions on half a dozen other people (to coin a phrase, "not everyone can be an orphan"). Imagine if Frodo's parents had still been alive though elderly when the Quest came along, and Sam and Merry and Pippin had all been married - it's sort of the equivalent of that. They could possibly have done it, but half the challenge would have been arranging for everything at home to be taken care of before getting started (imagine Rosie Gamgee, nee Cotton, just letting her husband go off with Frodo alone for some vague period of time - not too likely). Same for the rest of the Fellowship and, for that matter, quite a few characters outside of it (Eowyn's mother would probably not be fooled by the "Dernhelm" outfit, for one thing).

Basically it's the same reason that heroes and heroines in all adventure novels always have dead or absent mothers, if not dead or absent fathers as well. If they had parents, how would they ever get started? ("And just where do you think you're going off to, young lady?")

Nevtalathiel · 03-21-2002, 12:14 PM

Is Boromir and Faramir's mother mentioned anywhere? Perhaps that was why Denethor went mad, he didn't have the support of a good woman!

03-21-2002, 01:41 PM

yes. boromir and Faramir's mother was called Finduilas

03-21-2002, 01:45 PM

but she died 12 years after he married her

Lush · 03-21-2002, 09:42 PM

And it was when she died that Denethor's despair began to grow, or so we can assume from what is said regarding his behavior following her death.

Maeglin · 03-23-2002, 07:26 AM

I don't know anything about Legolas and Gimlis mothers. As a matter of fact I cant remember dwarven women mentioned anywhere! Do they have beards just as the male dwarves? If they do, is that why they aren't mentioned?

shieldmaiden · 03-23-2002, 07:42 AM

The only female Dwarf that is mentioned is Dis, mother of Kili and Fili, I think.

Maeglin · 03-26-2002, 12:35 PM

Yeah, thx for reminding me. So... does Dis have a beard? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

VanimaEdhel · 03-26-2002, 12:52 PM

I remember them talking about how there are VERY few dwarf women. For some reason, a lot of sons are born. They say that even when they are women, they dress in similar clothing to men, so many think that they ARE male dwarves...and no, I would guess they don't have beards.

In the Appendix about the races in LotR (Appendix F I believe) is where I remember they say there are VERY few dwarf women, which is why the number of living dwarves so slowly increases after many dwarves have died.

Yay! I know something! See: blondes AREN'T dumb! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

VanimaEdhel · 03-26-2002, 12:56 PM

Oh: I didn't answer the ORIGINAL question:

No, nowhere does it mention Legolas or Gimli's moms...but they must have had them SOMEWHERE. I'm sure Thranduil had a queen, and since there are Dwarf women, Gimli must have had a mommy!

Mirkgirl · 03-26-2002, 07:01 PM

I know this sounds a bit... but why to mention their mums? The book has enough names already and there will be no use to know two more that has nothing to do with the story. and to have them mentioned Tolkein should give some background, which would make the book twice as long if all mothers come to it!

[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Or just Tolkein ran out of names [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Esmerelda the Elf-Girl · 03-26-2002, 07:17 PM

hehe, you're absolutely right...i was just wondering seeing as i am on a neverending quest to learn more about lego. however, i have contented myself with the fact that his mommy was probably simply an annonymous Wood-Elf...or something. i dont know if i could deal with too many more names, come to think of it! (but just HIS mum really couldnt hurt)
[img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Nevfeniel · 03-30-2002, 07:51 PM

Quote:

And I'm not sure, but Thranduil's Queen *might* be mentioned somewhere in "The Hobbit

I just finished reading The Hobbit, and I'm pretty sure that she wasn't. Not 100% positive, but about 99.9% sure. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Birdland · 03-30-2002, 09:09 PM

Quote:

ii have contented myself with the fact that his (Legolas) mommy was probably simply an annonymous Wood-Elf...

Esmerelda, are you suggesting that Legolas the Wood-Elf was actually a...ahem..."wood colt"?

Kalimac · 03-30-2002, 10:18 PM

Nevfeniel - you're right, I re-read "The Hobbit" recently and didn't notice any reference to a Queen; it's one of those situations where he could be reasonably supposed to have one but if he does, she certainly stays in the background.

Birdland, that does make it sound like Thranduil had a bit of a harem going back there in one of those stone chambers...urgh. Does that mean Legolas would be one of fifty-odd Princes and Princesses, a la "The King and I"? No wonder he joined the fellowship; he would be the only Elf and not constantly getting mixed up with ten or twelve of his brothers. Elves don't seem like the polygamous types though, they're not terribly philoprogenitive and don't seem to be in the habit of remarrying even if separated for several centuries. (Elrond and Celebrian, anyone?)

***Mister Underhill*** · 03-31-2002, 01:34 AM

Interesting inquiry. Stepping outside the story, it's interesting to note that JRRT's own mother died when he was only ten, and, if I recall correctly, was sickly for some time before that. Just shooting in the dark here since I'm not too versed in the biographical details of the prof's life, but the lack of a strong mother figure in Tolkien's life may contribute to the odd lack of mothers in his work.

Starbreeze · 03-31-2002, 06:31 AM

Thats a good point Mister Underhill. I never thought of that. This certainly is an interesting question, one which I warrant will be causing me to think ( a rare occurance ) for rather a long time. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Esmerelda the Elf-Girl · 03-31-2002, 08:52 AM

uh oh, i just re-read my last post and it did sound rather like i was implying that legolas' mother was just some Wood-elf as part of a harem...or something else....oh no! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] that's REALLY not what i meant! i mean, if thats what they do i really have no problem with it i guess, but somehow i didnt get the impression of these elves being polygamous...i meant annonymous as in she never got mentioned by name by tolkien...that's all. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] I think there is probably not much more to be said on this topic, but thanks to everybody for their imput!

Aralaithiel · 03-31-2002, 03:31 PM

Well, I am happy to report that in my fan fiction, Legolas DOES have a mom, and I have named her Annandiel. Fan fic coming soon to a Barrow-Downs near you! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Esmerelda the Elf-Girl · 03-31-2002, 04:02 PM

yay! cant wait to read it...sounds interesting... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Esmerelda the Elf-Girl ]

03-20-2002, 06:56 PM	#1
Esmerelda the Elf-Girl Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: lalaland Posts: 14	Strange Question: Mums? Ok, this may seem like a dopey little question, but it ahs been driving me crazy and i have been cross-referencing books all over the place: is legolas' mum or gimli's mum mentioned anywhere?!?! do those poor boys HAVE mums? ha ha, that sounds very strange, but i know their fathers were very important, so it seems as if their mums might have done something noteworthy...not that Tolkien is exactly famous for abundant important female characters. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] but not to say anything against the man! any help would be great, though i kind of doubt there is any to be had. [ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: Esmerelda the Elf-Girl ] __________________ "The fire's very cozy here, and the food's VERY good, and there are Elves when you want them. What more could one want?" -Bilbo

03-20-2002, 07:14 PM	#2
alaklondewen Song of Seregon Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Following the road less traveled Posts: 1,193	I'm speaking off the top of my head, but the only mothers I recall are Belladonna Took (Bilbo's) and Galadriel (Arwen's). I think patriarchy is the way of the families in Middle Earth. ----------------------------------- "At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending. Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away!" __________________ At last I understand why we have waited! This is the ending. Now not day only shall be beloved, but night too shall be beautiful and blessed and all its fear pass away!

03-20-2002, 09:04 PM	#3
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	Galadriel wasn't Arwen's mom; Arwen's mom is Celebrian. Galdriel was her grandma. I don't recall ever hearing about Legolas or Gimli's mothers, though. I know they had them (obviously) but I don't think they've been mentioned. The only mention of any female dwarves is when Tolkien was saying something about the fact that they have beards, too. __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

03-20-2002, 09:17 PM	#4
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	Hey! Aragorn had a "mum", and the appendix implies that he really loved her, and that fate was not very kind to her. I guess you can say I take what I can get when it comes to Tolkien's females. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-20-2002, 09:49 PM	#5
twinkle Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: my little blooming garden Posts: 45	well at least we know Aragorn's mother's name.... Gilraen..... which is more than i could find about Gimli and Legolas' mothers....sorry [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] twinkle __________________ “For if joyful is the fountain that rises in the sun, its springs are in the wells of sorrow unfathomable at the foundations of the Earth.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Silmarillion

03-20-2002, 11:30 PM	#6
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Yes, Legolas and Gimli do seem to be singularly free of the nagging thought that they should really be writing home to mother and letting her know how they're doing [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. But no, I don't think they're ever mentioned - Tolkien says specifically that only Dwarf-woman named in history is Dis, mother of Fili and Kili, so that leaves Gloin's spouse somewhat out of things, wherever she is. And I'm not sure, but Thranduil's Queen might be mentioned somewhere in "The Hobbit" - if she is, though, it's nothing more than a glancing reference, she's certainly not named. The only other mother I can think of who hasn't been mentioned yet (and who has a story, not just a name in the family trees) is Primula Brandybuck, and of course she's dead even before Page 1. Sam's mother is presumably deceased (at least, I hope she is, considering that the Gaffer is being looked after by the Widow Rumble). Oh yes, and Mrs. Cotton is definitely the motherly type [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. I don't know if this particular lack-of-motherliness has so much to do with Tolkien not including women in his stories (though that certainly didn't help) as in the fact that most adventure stories tend to involve characters who are at a fairly loose end and don't have too many obligations or ties at home, mostly because they're in a better position to take a sudden change of circumstance without it having repercussions on half a dozen other people (to coin a phrase, "not everyone can be an orphan"). Imagine if Frodo's parents had still been alive though elderly when the Quest came along, and Sam and Merry and Pippin had all been married - it's sort of the equivalent of that. They could possibly have done it, but half the challenge would have been arranging for everything at home to be taken care of before getting started (imagine Rosie Gamgee, nee Cotton, just letting her husband go off with Frodo alone for some vague period of time - not too likely). Same for the rest of the Fellowship and, for that matter, quite a few characters outside of it (Eowyn's mother would probably not be fooled by the "Dernhelm" outfit, for one thing). Basically it's the same reason that heroes and heroines in all adventure novels always have dead or absent mothers, if not dead or absent fathers as well. If they had parents, how would they ever get started? ("And just where do you think you're going off to, young lady?") __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-21-2002, 12:14 PM	#7
Nevtalathiel Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: The depths of delusion Posts: 374	Is Boromir and Faramir's mother mentioned anywhere? Perhaps that was why Denethor went mad, he didn't have the support of a good woman! __________________ "You can go a long way with a smile. You can go even further with a smile and a gun." - Al Capone

03-21-2002, 01:41 PM	#8
Istari Guest Posts: n/a	yes. boromir and Faramir's mother was called Finduilas

03-21-2002, 01:45 PM	#9
Istari Guest Posts: n/a	but she died 12 years after he married her

03-21-2002, 09:42 PM	#10
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	And it was when she died that Denethor's despair began to grow, or so we can assume from what is said regarding his behavior following her death. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-23-2002, 07:26 AM	#11
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	I don't know anything about Legolas and Gimlis mothers. As a matter of fact I cant remember dwarven women mentioned anywhere! Do they have beards just as the male dwarves? If they do, is that why they aren't mentioned? __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

03-23-2002, 07:42 AM	#12
shieldmaiden Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: oblivion Posts: 103	The only female Dwarf that is mentioned is Dis, mother of Kili and Fili, I think. __________________ Huonya harya vanyë heni yassen sila i eleni! :)

03-26-2002, 12:35 PM	#13
Maeglin Wight Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Nan Elmoth Posts: 136	Yeah, thx for reminding me. So... does Dis have a beard? [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] __________________ The fool speaks of what he knows. The wise knows what he speaks of.

03-26-2002, 12:52 PM	#14
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,461	I remember them talking about how there are VERY few dwarf women. For some reason, a lot of sons are born. They say that even when they are women, they dress in similar clothing to men, so many think that they ARE male dwarves...and no, I would guess they don't have beards. In the Appendix about the races in LotR (Appendix F I believe) is where I remember they say there are VERY few dwarf women, which is why the number of living dwarves so slowly increases after many dwarves have died. Yay! I know something! See: blondes AREN'T dumb! [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

03-26-2002, 12:56 PM	#15
VanimaEdhel Etheral Enchantress Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wellesley College! Posts: 1,461	Oh: I didn't answer the ORIGINAL question: No, nowhere does it mention Legolas or Gimli's moms...but they must have had them SOMEWHERE. I'm sure Thranduil had a queen, and since there are Dwarf women, Gimli must have had a mommy! __________________ "I think we dream so we don't have to be apart so long. If we're in each others dreams, we can be together all the time." - Hobbes of Calvin and Hobbes

03-26-2002, 07:01 PM	#16
Mirkgirl Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 84	I know this sounds a bit... but why to mention their mums? The book has enough names already and there will be no use to know two more that has nothing to do with the story. and to have them mentioned Tolkein should give some background, which would make the book twice as long if all mothers come to it! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Or just Tolkein ran out of names [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ "Hobbits! Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There's something mighty queer behind this."

03-26-2002, 07:17 PM	#17
Esmerelda the Elf-Girl Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: lalaland Posts: 14	hehe, you're absolutely right...i was just wondering seeing as i am on a neverending quest to learn more about lego. however, i have contented myself with the fact that his mommy was probably simply an annonymous Wood-Elf...or something. i dont know if i could deal with too many more names, come to think of it! (but just HIS mum really couldnt hurt) [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] __________________ "The fire's very cozy here, and the food's VERY good, and there are Elves when you want them. What more could one want?" -Bilbo

03-30-2002, 10:18 PM	#20
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	Nevfeniel - you're right, I re-read "The Hobbit" recently and didn't notice any reference to a Queen; it's one of those situations where he could be reasonably supposed to have one but if he does, she certainly stays in the background. Birdland, that does make it sound like Thranduil had a bit of a harem going back there in one of those stone chambers...urgh. Does that mean Legolas would be one of fifty-odd Princes and Princesses, a la "The King and I"? No wonder he joined the fellowship; he would be the only Elf and not constantly getting mixed up with ten or twelve of his brothers. Elves don't seem like the polygamous types though, they're not terribly philoprogenitive and don't seem to be in the habit of remarrying even if separated for several centuries. (Elrond and Celebrian, anyone?) __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-31-2002, 01:34 AM	#21
*Mister Underhill* Dread Horseman Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Behind you! Posts: 2,743	Interesting inquiry. Stepping outside the story, it's interesting to note that JRRT's own mother died when he was only ten, and, if I recall correctly, was sickly for some time before that. Just shooting in the dark here since I'm not too versed in the biographical details of the prof's life, but the lack of a strong mother figure in Tolkien's life may contribute to the odd lack of mothers in his work.

03-31-2002, 06:31 AM	#22
Starbreeze Ghost of a Smile Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Mirkwood - Middle Earth Posts: 389	Thats a good point Mister Underhill. I never thought of that. This certainly is an interesting question, one which I warrant will be causing me to think ( a rare occurance ) for rather a long time. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Do not tamper with the affairs of wizards, they are not all that subtle - Terry Pratchett To write is to make dreams, to make dreams is to awaken the fantasy of the mind, to awaken the mind is to be a master.

03-31-2002, 08:52 AM	#23
Esmerelda the Elf-Girl Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: lalaland Posts: 14	uh oh, i just re-read my last post and it did sound rather like i was implying that legolas' mother was just some Wood-elf as part of a harem...or something else....oh no! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] that's REALLY not what i meant! i mean, if thats what they do i really have no problem with it i guess, but somehow i didnt get the impression of these elves being polygamous...i meant annonymous as in she never got mentioned by name by tolkien...that's all. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] I think there is probably not much more to be said on this topic, but thanks to everybody for their imput! __________________ "The fire's very cozy here, and the food's VERY good, and there are Elves when you want them. What more could one want?" -Bilbo

03-31-2002, 03:31 PM	#24
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Well, I am happy to report that in my fan fiction, Legolas DOES have a mom, and I have named her Annandiel. Fan fic coming soon to a Barrow-Downs near you! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

03-31-2002, 04:02 PM	#25
Esmerelda the Elf-Girl Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: lalaland Posts: 14	yay! cant wait to read it...sounds interesting... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [ March 31, 2002: Message edited by: Esmerelda the Elf-Girl ] __________________ "The fire's very cozy here, and the food's VERY good, and there are Elves when you want them. What more could one want?" -Bilbo