What would you do? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Sauron999 · 12-04-2002, 04:03 PM

Imagine you are Sam at the Cracks of Doom. Frodo claims to be the Lord of the Ring, and you are watching him disappear and feeling that finally Sauron has noticed what you are up to. What would you do if there was no Gollum to come up behind you, bite Frodo's finger off and save the day?
What would Sam do, if no Gollum came? Would he try to get the Ring off Frodo? But how, if he didn't see him? He could hear him, of course, but Sam knew that he could take the ring only by force, so could he hurt Frodo if there was no other way? I guess that he would think about it, but it could be too late when he makes up his mind finally.
Stupid thoughts maybe, but what's your opinion?

the witch king · 12-04-2002, 04:14 PM

I dont think sam could bring him self to do it. Good topic by the way

Morgoth Bauglir · 12-04-2002, 04:15 PM

i would spread my arms out as far as i could and go straight towards the crack....frodo would fall in and we would all be saved. one life is nothing if it saves thousands of others [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

the witch king · 12-04-2002, 04:17 PM

I dont think sam would see it that way

Sauron999 · 12-04-2002, 04:22 PM

yeah but what do you think about Sam, Morgoth? Do you think he could manage to hurt his master?
which brings me to another point: If Frodo would claim the ring, it is likely that he got some power from it. And Sam wouldn't just come up and throw him down the cliff, he would certainly talk to him, and try to calm him down.
So, Frodo, his power enlarged by the ring, would have time to focus on Sam, and with his power force him to kill himself or something like that. Not a really comforting thought.
And even if Gollum would come up, let's say he's too late, and Frodo can force him, too, to throw himself down. Now that would be a problem for Middle-Earth.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 12-04-2002, 04:25 PM

Not a stupid thought at all, I don't think any are.

Sam might have taken too long to decide. That seems very likely. I think that Sam would be torn about the decision he would be forced to make. He would either have to throw Frodo into the fire with the ring, or do nothing. But if he had the time to think about it (which he didn't because at that moment a nazgul was racing to mt. doom) He would push Frodo w/the ring into the fire, rather than live without Frodo. I think that he would have pushed Frodo in, as hard as it would be for him, because he always seemed to do what is right. But sam is a dumb@ss a lot of the times, so I think that he would try to push Frodo in but being clumbsy, fall in himself. Wierd how my predictions end with sam in the fire. Anyways, I think that those were the only choices that sam had. You could not reason with Frodo, he was beyond that.

If I were in sam's position, I would have pushed Frodo in. It would be sad, yes, but it would be the best way to destroy the ring.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

Sauron999 · 12-04-2002, 04:30 PM

Quote:

But sam is a dumb@ss a lot of the times, so I think that he would try to push Frodo in but being clumbsy, fall in himself.

Good point! And while he is falling, he is complaining loudly, and giving himself names and thinking about what his Gaffer would say. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

the witch king · 12-04-2002, 04:33 PM

i think he wouldnt be able to bring him self to do it and soon enuff a nazgul would be there and take the ring unless like gollem frodo would rather die in a firey pit than return the ring to souron who knows

Tirinor · 12-04-2002, 05:01 PM

I could see it going any of these three ways:
1. Sam reacts without thinking and bum rushes frodo, along with himself into the fire.
2. sam is dumbfounded, frodo leaves then gets mauled by the Nazgul, game over for ME. or
3. Sam hesitates, then reacts too late, Frodo slays him, Frodo realizes what he has done and what has become of him. Frodo throws himself and the ring into the fire.

All ways vary in degree of tragedy, yet all are indeed tragic.

Shanna · 12-04-2002, 05:39 PM

lol, All good reasons...I think he would bite off Frodo's finger being so hungry and accidently swallow the ring therefore sealing his and Frodo's fate, yep thats exactly how it would have happened [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Nuranar · 12-04-2002, 06:42 PM

Quote:

3. Sam hesitates, then reacts too late, Frodo slays him, Frodo realizes what he has done and what has become of him. Frodo throws himself and the ring into the fire.

If Frodo was already that far under the influence of the ring, do you think he would care? He knew what would happen to himself, to Sam, to his friends, to all of Middle-Earth if he claimed the ring, for Sauron would take it from him. Yet since the influence was so strong that he claimed it anyway, do you think Frodo would have minded the death of Sam so much that he would have killed himself?

-Imrahil- · 12-04-2002, 08:16 PM

Nuranar is right. Frodo was totally controlled by the ring. He would have wanted to stay alive with it, not destroy it and himself.

burrahobbit · 12-05-2002, 02:33 AM

JUST LIKE OLD TIMES.

Sam would go in with Frodo. He wouldn't be able to live with himself after doing something like that, so he wouldn't. He also wouldn't let Frodo live with himself if he couldn't get the ring off.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ]

Tirinor · 12-05-2002, 09:27 AM

I feel pretty strongly that if Frodo killed Sam he would then do himself in for shame. Of course, we are arguing the psychology of a fictional character, so maybe we should do ourselves in for shame. But seriously, Frodo's awareness of the ring, his love for Sam, the inherent quality that made him a "successful" ring bearer, the proximity of an immediate solution, all create an environment that would make frodo's post samicide suicide probable. But also seriously, Tolkien was a devout Catholic and I doubt that he would even consider having his hero commit suicide. so, eventhough I think from a psychological point of view Frodo's shakspearean tragic heroism is possible and perhaps probable, the probable literary reality is that suicide was very, very low on Tolkien's list of possible directions.

To answer the original question: What would I do? If Sam was me, I'd probably try to push Frodo in, going in with him if nessessary. If I was Sam, I would probably freak out and awkwardly wrestle and argue with frodo until he either snapped out of it or destroyed me.

Elven Mistress · 12-05-2002, 09:35 AM

Quote:

3. Sam hesitates, then reacts too late, Frodo slays him, Frodo realizes what he has done and what has become of him. Frodo throws himself and the ring into the fire.

(sorry if the quote didn't work - i've never done it before)

I kind of agree with the above. I don't think Frodo would throw himself in, but just the ring. He would realize what he did, and his love for Sam would be great enough to get over The Ring's hatred that had been poured into him. He would throw The Ring in, just as Sam had wanted him, and in a way redeaming himself.

(i hope that came out the way i wanted it to... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] )

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Elven Mistress ]

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Elven Mistress ]

Diamond18 · 12-05-2002, 11:07 AM

I don't think that Sam could ever, under any circumstances, harm Frodo. Even if it was for the good of the world. I agree with the theory that Sam would try to talk Frodo out of it and Frodo would kill Sam. Frodo would then be attacked by the Nazgul and they would take the Ring from him, and either destroy him or take him back to Sauron to be tortured for all eternity.

I, myself, would have pushed Frodo in. But I'm not Sam. Perhaps if Sam was able to think clearly enough about Frodo's fate in the hands of Sauron, he would contemplate it. But to actually follow through with it...I do not see that happening.

Without Gollum, the whole thing is hopeless. That's what Gandalf foresaw, and why Tolkien did not let Sam kill Gollum outside of Shelob's lair or on the path up the Mountain.

Keneldil the Polka-dot · 12-05-2002, 11:23 AM

If I were Sam I would have bitten off Frodo's finger, claimed the Ring myself, and tried to become the next Dark Hobbit. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]

Seriously, I think Sam would have tried to push Frodo in with the Ring, and jumped in after. I don't think he could have lived with knowing he killed Frodo.

I don't think Frodo would have thrown the Ring in himself, even if he killed Sam. The Ring had 100% control of Frodo.

[ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ]

12-04-2002, 04:03 PM	#1
Sauron999 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Austria Posts: 29	What would you do? Imagine you are Sam at the Cracks of Doom. Frodo claims to be the Lord of the Ring, and you are watching him disappear and feeling that finally Sauron has noticed what you are up to. What would you do if there was no Gollum to come up behind you, bite Frodo's finger off and save the day? What would Sam do, if no Gollum came? Would he try to get the Ring off Frodo? But how, if he didn't see him? He could hear him, of course, but Sam knew that he could take the ring only by force, so could he hurt Frodo if there was no other way? I guess that he would think about it, but it could be too late when he makes up his mind finally. Stupid thoughts maybe, but what's your opinion? __________________ Behold the Great Evil!

12-04-2002, 04:14 PM	#2
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	I dont think sam could bring him self to do it. Good topic by the way __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-04-2002, 04:17 PM	#4
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	I dont think sam would see it that way __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-04-2002, 04:22 PM	#5
Sauron999 Animated Skeleton Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Austria Posts: 29	yeah but what do you think about Sam, Morgoth? Do you think he could manage to hurt his master? which brings me to another point: If Frodo would claim the ring, it is likely that he got some power from it. And Sam wouldn't just come up and throw him down the cliff, he would certainly talk to him, and try to calm him down. So, Frodo, his power enlarged by the ring, would have time to focus on Sam, and with his power force him to kill himself or something like that. Not a really comforting thought. And even if Gollum would come up, let's say he's too late, and Frodo can force him, too, to throw himself down. Now that would be a problem for Middle-Earth. __________________ Behold the Great Evil!

12-04-2002, 04:25 PM	#6
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	Not a stupid thought at all, I don't think any are. Sam might have taken too long to decide. That seems very likely. I think that Sam would be torn about the decision he would be forced to make. He would either have to throw Frodo into the fire with the ring, or do nothing. But if he had the time to think about it (which he didn't because at that moment a nazgul was racing to mt. doom) He would push Frodo w/the ring into the fire, rather than live without Frodo. I think that he would have pushed Frodo in, as hard as it would be for him, because he always seemed to do what is right. But sam is a dumb@ss a lot of the times, so I think that he would try to push Frodo in but being clumbsy, fall in himself. Wierd how my predictions end with sam in the fire. Anyways, I think that those were the only choices that sam had. You could not reason with Frodo, he was beyond that. If I were in sam's position, I would have pushed Frodo in. It would be sad, yes, but it would be the best way to destroy the ring. [ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ] __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

12-04-2002, 04:15 PM	#3
Morgoth Bauglir Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 252	i would spread my arms out as far as i could and go straight towards the crack....frodo would fall in and we would all be saved. one life is nothing if it saves thousands of others [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

12-04-2002, 04:33 PM	#8
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	i think he wouldnt be able to bring him self to do it and soon enuff a nazgul would be there and take the ring unless like gollem frodo would rather die in a firey pit than return the ring to souron who knows __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-04-2002, 05:01 PM	#9
Tirinor Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Alabama, U.S.A. Posts: 90	I could see it going any of these three ways: 1. Sam reacts without thinking and bum rushes frodo, along with himself into the fire. 2. sam is dumbfounded, frodo leaves then gets mauled by the Nazgul, game over for ME. or 3. Sam hesitates, then reacts too late, Frodo slays him, Frodo realizes what he has done and what has become of him. Frodo throws himself and the ring into the fire. All ways vary in degree of tragedy, yet all are indeed tragic. __________________ War Eagle.

12-04-2002, 05:39 PM	#10
Shanna Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: A little place I like to call insanity... Posts: 14	lol, All good reasons...I think he would bite off Frodo's finger being so hungry and accidently swallow the ring therefore sealing his and Frodo's fate, yep thats exactly how it would have happened [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ "Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is a better defense" DURELIN IS A PANSY! HAHA! PIPH YOU!

12-04-2002, 08:16 PM	#12
-Imrahil- Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Dol Amroth, upon the Bay of Belfalas Posts: 259	Nuranar is right. Frodo was totally controlled by the ring. He would have wanted to stay alive with it, not destroy it and himself. __________________ My body is broken. I go to my fathers. And even in their mighty company I shall not now be ashamed. I felled the black serpent. A grim morn, and a glad day, and a golden sunset!

12-05-2002, 02:33 AM	#13
burrahobbit Hidden Spirit Join Date: May 2000 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,424	JUST LIKE OLD TIMES. Sam would go in with Frodo. He wouldn't be able to live with himself after doing something like that, so he wouldn't. He also wouldn't let Frodo live with himself if he couldn't get the ring off. [ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: burrahobbit ] __________________ What's a burrahobbit got to do with my pocket, anyways?

12-05-2002, 09:27 AM	#14
Tirinor Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Alabama, U.S.A. Posts: 90	I feel pretty strongly that if Frodo killed Sam he would then do himself in for shame. Of course, we are arguing the psychology of a fictional character, so maybe we should do ourselves in for shame. But seriously, Frodo's awareness of the ring, his love for Sam, the inherent quality that made him a "successful" ring bearer, the proximity of an immediate solution, all create an environment that would make frodo's post samicide suicide probable. But also seriously, Tolkien was a devout Catholic and I doubt that he would even consider having his hero commit suicide. so, eventhough I think from a psychological point of view Frodo's shakspearean tragic heroism is possible and perhaps probable, the probable literary reality is that suicide was very, very low on Tolkien's list of possible directions. To answer the original question: What would I do? If Sam was me, I'd probably try to push Frodo in, going in with him if nessessary. If I was Sam, I would probably freak out and awkwardly wrestle and argue with frodo until he either snapped out of it or destroyed me. __________________ War Eagle.

12-05-2002, 11:07 AM	#16
Diamond18 Eidolon of a Took Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: my own private fantasy world Posts: 3,460	I don't think that Sam could ever, under any circumstances, harm Frodo. Even if it was for the good of the world. I agree with the theory that Sam would try to talk Frodo out of it and Frodo would kill Sam. Frodo would then be attacked by the Nazgul and they would take the Ring from him, and either destroy him or take him back to Sauron to be tortured for all eternity. I, myself, would have pushed Frodo in. But I'm not Sam. Perhaps if Sam was able to think clearly enough about Frodo's fate in the hands of Sauron, he would contemplate it. But to actually follow through with it...I do not see that happening. Without Gollum, the whole thing is hopeless. That's what Gandalf foresaw, and why Tolkien did not let Sam kill Gollum outside of Shelob's lair or on the path up the Mountain. __________________ All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression.

12-05-2002, 11:23 AM	#17
Keneldil the Polka-dot Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 128	If I were Sam I would have bitten off Frodo's finger, claimed the Ring myself, and tried to become the next Dark Hobbit. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] Seriously, I think Sam would have tried to push Frodo in with the Ring, and jumped in after. I don't think he could have lived with knowing he killed Frodo. I don't think Frodo would have thrown the Ring in himself, even if he killed Sam. The Ring had 100% control of Frodo. [ December 05, 2002: Message edited by: Keneldil the Polka-dot ] __________________ "Trust in the ball Jake.....and throw yourself."