ow about them runes - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Son of Fire · 04-09-2003, 10:17 AM

Okay, we all know that there were runes of power on most ancient weaponry in Tolkien's works ie Anduril, glamdring, ec, but what did they say? It seems as if they had grat power over the world as is seen with Merry's barrow blade that smote the witch king, being set in runes was able to do this. Any insights would be awesome.

04-09-2003, 10:27 AM

*%^#$
There's some runes for you! No, but I bet it says "Foe Hammer" on Glamdring...just guessing. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

04-09-2003, 11:59 AM

The runes used by Tolkien was the Germanic (please correct me if I'm wrong) ones although he called them Angerthas. In their time of use, the Shamans and Stonewriters (don't know the correct english word here, sorry...) of the North where treated as powerful wizards, and therefore striking fear into their enemies hearts. I doubt there is no other power in them, but in Tolkien's Middle-Earth everything is possible...

If you are interested in this debate, I advice you to study magic and magical history for some more years. Especially the parts covering the use of magical writing - hieroglyphs, runes and so forth.

We can only speculate, but it would be reasonable to believe that the writings was in the classical style of the runes engraved in the viking swords. This could be everything from old sayings to the name of the owner, so I don't think it's possible to get some real answers for your question.

***Sharkû*** · 04-09-2003, 06:15 PM

"The 'cirth' or runes in the 'L.R.' were invented for that story and, within it, have no supposed historical connexion with the Germanic Runic alphabet, to which the English gave its most elaborate development. There is thus nothing to be surprised at if similar signs have different values. The similarity of shapes is inevitable in alphabets devised primarily for cut[ting] or scratching on wood and so made of lines directly or diagonally across the grain." (Letter 245)

Selmo · 04-10-2003, 02:03 AM

The runes used in The Hobbit were the real thing, as used in Scandinavia and the British Isles.

Son of Fire · 04-10-2003, 07:41 AM

Right, iknew taht he did not use his own runes, but those of the runic alphabet, but i was wondering if there was anything in HoME about what they said, seeing as I have just finished books 1 and 2, but not the others.

One Axe to Rule them All · 04-10-2003, 03:38 PM

Doesn't the name of this post sound strangely familiar to the thread i started called "how about them swords?"

I smell a conspiracy!
Or at least a good idea getting rolling... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Scott · 04-10-2003, 07:51 PM

Well, there used to be a really great site with all of the weapons and their inscriptions, but I can't find it for the life of me.
I do know that in the movies at least, Arwen's sword's inscription says its name with a small spell on it and the name of the original owner (one of Thingol's relatives - niece, I think?). Glamdring's inscription basically says that it belonged to Thingol and I think it has some sort of "orcs beware" type spell on it. Off hand, I can't think of any of the other inscriptions (not that I'm 100% sure on these either [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]), but the info. is on the web. You just need to know where to look.
One place I didn't get around to trying was www.warofthering.net . Their weapons section is pretty informative.

04-11-2003, 09:55 AM

I do know that "Sting's" runes suposedly say something like, "Sting is my name; I am the Spider's bane." [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

**The Saucepan Man** · 04-11-2003, 05:31 PM

Quote:

I do know that "Sting's" runes suposedly say something like, "Sting is my name; I am the Spider's bane."

I remember reading that these were the Runes devised by the Elvish language expert retained by the makers of the films. But is there any evidence in the books that this was the inscription? After all, it was a blade that shone blue in the presence of Orcs suggesting that they were its primary intended victims. Now, Ungoliant left some of her brood along the Ered Gorogoroth didn't she, so there would have been spiders in the vicinity of Gondolin. But I doubt that they were any great threat to the hidden city ...

Salocin · 04-12-2003, 12:55 PM

Wasn't it Bilbo who named Sting Sting? I don't think that was it's original name and so I doubt that is what the runes on it say. I have heard that the runes on the Sting used in the movie sayed that though.

**The Saucepan Man** · 04-12-2003, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Wasn't it Bilbo who named Sting Sting? I don't think that was it's original name and so I doubt that is what the runes on it say.

Yes, you are absoultely right, Salocin. After he kills the first spider, the one that was trying to bind him with its webs, Bilbo wipes and sheaths the sword:

Quote:

"I will give you a name," he said to it, "and I shall call you Sting".

I doubt somehow that whoever forged it in Gondolin foresaw that. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 04-12-2003, 08:26 PM

And the runes on Arwen's sword are completely irrelevant, because in the book Arwen didn't carry a sword. *making a face* PJ's adaptation is great for a movie, but it's hardly Canonical.

My educated guess though, would be that the runes did carry some kind of power, although it may only have been the power of their history to frighten enemies. However, as the Saucepan Man pointed out, the blades of Gondolin did have the ability to tell orcs from other kinds of baddies, and the elves in general did seem to be able to invest their power in objects (ie the rings of Celebrimbor). I don't think there's enough information given to really tell though...

Sophia

Son of Fire · 04-13-2003, 09:21 PM

Okay, wel, there was a name for sting beforehand, it was oops, that was a pj thing too. i hate it when that happens, anyway, runes themselves were supposed to impart special power, like safety, healing, conquest, etc. He used (a variation) of celtic runes, but there were many different types.

doug*platypus · 04-23-2003, 10:04 PM

I don't know much about how Rune Magic is shown in books, or in mythologies, except for in The Death Gate Cycle. In these books, a bunch of people called Patryns have sigla (more than one sigil) all over their body, intertwined with each other. The Patryns activate these and use them for magic, while another group called Sartans writes sigla (or runes) in the air.

So, if you've seen a few too many cartoons or comic books, like me, you might imagine the runes on Glamdring or Andúril glowing blue and flying around the room in the middle of a fight, giving power to the wielder and scaring the bejeebas out of the poor wee Orcs.

There's also the "cool factor" from the runes, like when Aragorn leaves Andúril with Háma. A sword like Andúril has so many impressive looking runes on it and its scabbard, that it's obvious that it and its owner are something special. Not every sword would have been so heavily inscripted.

That phrase about Sting sounds very familiar! Is it really only from the movies? It sounds like a very Bilbo Baggins thing to write.

Salocin · 04-24-2003, 11:37 AM

Even if it was a Bilbo thing it still would not have anything to do with Sting's history or forging.

doug*platypus · 04-25-2003, 08:24 AM

True, but Bilbo had friends in high places, and could have had runes added later at Rivendell.

Mitheithel · 04-26-2003, 07:58 AM

Note to Isildur:

Quote:

I do know that "Sting's" runes suposedly say something like, "Sting is my name; I am the Spider's bane."

This cannot be, because it was Bilbo who first called the sword Sting (after he had defeated a bunch of spiders).

Salocin · 04-26-2003, 02:02 PM

Interesting theory, doug*platypus. We know they did have that skill in Rivendell since Narsil was reforged into Anduril by smiths there and the blade of Anduril was covered in runes. It's plasable, but if that were the case I think we would have been told in some way. Like when Frodo receves Sting he would ask what the runes meant and Bilbo would explain it. I think, since we have no evidence to the contrary, we will just have to assume it did not have runes or that what they said will never be known.

04-09-2003, 10:17 AM	#1
Son of Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 50	ow about them runes Okay, we all know that there were runes of power on most ancient weaponry in Tolkien's works ie Anduril, glamdring, ec, but what did they say? It seems as if they had grat power over the world as is seen with Merry's barrow blade that smote the witch king, being set in runes was able to do this. Any insights would be awesome. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

04-10-2003, 07:41 AM	#6
Son of Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 50	Right, iknew taht he did not use his own runes, but those of the runic alphabet, but i was wondering if there was anything in HoME about what they said, seeing as I have just finished books 1 and 2, but not the others. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

04-10-2003, 03:38 PM	#7
One Axe to Rule them All Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The Citadel Posts: 212	Doesn't the name of this post sound strangely familiar to the thread i started called "how about them swords?" I smell a conspiracy! Or at least a good idea getting rolling... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Why are you reading this? Go outside, be happy, get some sunlight! You're so pasty and thin! You horrify me, GO! Get some light before they take you too! It's too late for me but SAVE YOURSELF! For more LOTR fun, Join The Citadel!

04-10-2003, 07:51 PM	#8
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	Well, there used to be a really great site with all of the weapons and their inscriptions, but I can't find it for the life of me. I do know that in the movies at least, Arwen's sword's inscription says its name with a small spell on it and the name of the original owner (one of Thingol's relatives - niece, I think?). Glamdring's inscription basically says that it belonged to Thingol and I think it has some sort of "orcs beware" type spell on it. Off hand, I can't think of any of the other inscriptions (not that I'm 100% sure on these either [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]), but the info. is on the web. You just need to know where to look. One place I didn't get around to trying was www.warofthering.net . Their weapons section is pretty informative. __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

04-12-2003, 12:55 PM	#11
Salocin Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Zion Posts: 106	Wasn't it Bilbo who named Sting Sting? I don't think that was it's original name and so I doubt that is what the runes on it say. I have heard that the runes on the Sting used in the movie sayed that though. __________________ Christ is Risen!

04-09-2003, 10:27 AM	#2
Isildur Guest Posts: n/a	*%^#$ There's some runes for you! No, but I bet it says "Foe Hammer" on Glamdring...just guessing. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

04-09-2003, 11:59 AM	#3
Lord Dargor Guest Posts: n/a	The runes used by Tolkien was the Germanic (please correct me if I'm wrong) ones although he called them Angerthas. In their time of use, the Shamans and Stonewriters (don't know the correct english word here, sorry...) of the North where treated as powerful wizards, and therefore striking fear into their enemies hearts. I doubt there is no other power in them, but in Tolkien's Middle-Earth everything is possible... If you are interested in this debate, I advice you to study magic and magical history for some more years. Especially the parts covering the use of magical writing - hieroglyphs, runes and so forth. We can only speculate, but it would be reasonable to believe that the writings was in the classical style of the runes engraved in the viking swords. This could be everything from old sayings to the name of the owner, so I don't think it's possible to get some real answers for your question.

04-09-2003, 06:15 PM	#4
*Sharkû* Hungry Ghoul Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 1,719	"The 'cirth' or runes in the 'L.R.' were invented for that story and, within it, have no supposed historical connexion with the Germanic Runic alphabet, to which the English gave its most elaborate development. There is thus nothing to be surprised at if similar signs have different values. The similarity of shapes is inevitable in alphabets devised primarily for cut[ting] or scratching on wood and so made of lines directly or diagonally across the grain." (Letter 245)

04-10-2003, 02:03 AM	#5
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	The runes used in The Hobbit were the real thing, as used in Scandinavia and the British Isles.

04-11-2003, 09:55 AM	#9
Isildur Guest Posts: n/a	I do know that "Sting's" runes suposedly say something like, "Sting is my name; I am the Spider's bane." [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

04-12-2003, 08:26 PM	#13
Sophia the Thunder Mistress Scent of Simbelmynë Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aboard Highwind, bound for Traverse Town Posts: 1,780	And the runes on Arwen's sword are completely irrelevant, because in the book Arwen didn't carry a sword. making a face PJ's adaptation is great for a movie, but it's hardly Canonical. My educated guess though, would be that the runes did carry some kind of power, although it may only have been the power of their history to frighten enemies. However, as the Saucepan Man pointed out, the blades of Gondolin did have the ability to tell orcs from other kinds of baddies, and the elves in general did seem to be able to invest their power in objects (ie the rings of Celebrimbor). I don't think there's enough information given to really tell though... Sophia __________________ The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me!

04-13-2003, 09:21 PM	#14
Son of Fire Animated Skeleton Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oregon Posts: 50	Okay, wel, there was a name for sting beforehand, it was oops, that was a pj thing too. i hate it when that happens, anyway, runes themselves were supposed to impart special power, like safety, healing, conquest, etc. He used (a variation) of celtic runes, but there were many different types. __________________ Say my name and I'm gone, who am I?

04-23-2003, 10:04 PM	#15
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	I don't know much about how Rune Magic is shown in books, or in mythologies, except for in The Death Gate Cycle. In these books, a bunch of people called Patryns have sigla (more than one sigil) all over their body, intertwined with each other. The Patryns activate these and use them for magic, while another group called Sartans writes sigla (or runes) in the air. So, if you've seen a few too many cartoons or comic books, like me, you might imagine the runes on Glamdring or Andúril glowing blue and flying around the room in the middle of a fight, giving power to the wielder and scaring the bejeebas out of the poor wee Orcs. There's also the "cool factor" from the runes, like when Aragorn leaves Andúril with Háma. A sword like Andúril has so many impressive looking runes on it and its scabbard, that it's obvious that it and its owner are something special. Not every sword would have been so heavily inscripted. That phrase about Sting sounds very familiar! Is it really only from the movies? It sounds like a very Bilbo Baggins thing to write. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

04-24-2003, 11:37 AM	#16
Salocin Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Zion Posts: 106	Even if it was a Bilbo thing it still would not have anything to do with Sting's history or forging. __________________ Christ is Risen!

04-25-2003, 08:24 AM	#17
doug*platypus Delver in the Deep Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Aotearoa Posts: 960	True, but Bilbo had friends in high places, and could have had runes added later at Rivendell. __________________ But Gwindor answered: 'The doom lies in yourself, not in your name'.

04-26-2003, 02:02 PM	#19
Salocin Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Zion Posts: 106	Interesting theory, doug*platypus. We know they did have that skill in Rivendell since Narsil was reforged into Anduril by smiths there and the blade of Anduril was covered in runes. It's plasable, but if that were the case I think we would have been told in some way. Like when Frodo receves Sting he would ask what the runes meant and Bilbo would explain it. I think, since we have no evidence to the contrary, we will just have to assume it did not have runes or that what they said will never be known. __________________ Christ is Risen!