The istari that succeeded - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

engwaalphiel · 12-02-2002, 11:48 AM

I've always wondered about why Gandalf was the only one of the Istari to really succeed in his "mission" if you like ? i suppose this applies for the rest of the FOTR as well what do you think was special about THEM in particular ? Why was it their destiny to take part in the quest ?

Any answers ????
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

the witch king · 12-02-2002, 12:03 PM

Curumo failed for trying to domonate the 1st and 2nd born, Aiwendil faild as he became enamoured with birds and beasts and forsook men and elves and Alatar and Pallando went in to the east and did not return

engwaalphiel · 12-02-2002, 01:06 PM

Thanks for your answer [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] does anyone think there was a REASON gandalf succeeded where perhaps the others failed ? it would be nice to get some views [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Arwen Imladris · 12-02-2002, 03:36 PM

Perhaps hr had a better heart. He originally didn't want to go, he went there humbly while Saruman was already near the top. maybe.

the witch king · 12-02-2002, 04:16 PM

yeshe did say he was to weak and that he feard sauron when manwe first asked him

Gorothlammothiel · 12-02-2002, 04:39 PM

Just a thought...

If Gandalf suceeded in his quest, I believe that it was down to, in part, the companionship, support and help he recieved from the fellowship and all races of ME. Alone he may not have completed his quest, falling to the dark powers as Saruman did. We know that he was under the reach of the ring, but resisted it. If he hadn't the faith he had in the fellowship would he have maintained that level of self control?

engwaalphiel · 12-03-2002, 10:35 AM

good point Gorothlammothiel!
The fellowship was so strong Together and that perhaps is what made the quest work . T

Maédhros · 12-03-2002, 11:35 AM

If you read Home 12: Last Writings, you will see that the blue wizards had a positive effect in the second and third ages, and in a way the succedeed too.

Legolas · 12-03-2002, 12:28 PM

Maedhros, that's not for certain. Only a theory.

It's strange to say they had an impact on the Second Age, since they didn't come until 1000 years into the Third Age. See the related thread in this forum for the quotes on possible outcomes. Tolkien gave us his thoughts (and the blue wizards' names) two different times, each being very different from the other, with the exception of them going into the east.

You cannot so readily call writings from HoME (or Unfinished Tales, for that matter) canonical.

[ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

the witch king · 12-03-2002, 12:32 PM

yes it is very likely that they set up cults in the east which in a way stoped some of the evil men of the east comeing to the wars of the west

Legolas · 12-03-2002, 12:41 PM

If they set up cults, it wouldn't have been for a good reason. There were other, better ways to accomplish such a mission(as Gandalf shows us). Establishing evil cults would indicate that they were no better than Saruman or Sauron in that they wanted power over Middle-earth.

the witch king · 12-03-2002, 01:00 PM

thats right thats why they faild but the cults did play a part i.e. they where not in support of sauron and if they had power over the men of the east it would have stoped them comeing to the aid of mordor in the war of the ring

Maédhros · 12-03-2002, 06:27 PM

Quote:

You cannot so readily call writings from HoME (or Unfinished Tales, for that matter) canonical.

I didn't called them canonical myself. I should have said that to me it was probable that they had an influence based on HOME 12: Last Writting: The Five Wizards
It kind of makes sense to me. Sauron would had a great deal of Men at his disposal in the East, probably greater than those in the West. There had to be something that prevented Sauron from using those vast forces to vanquish his enemies by force.
Yet, if we do not count Unfinished Tales as canon, we cannot say this either:
From Unfinished Tales: The Istari

Quote:

Among Men they were supposed (at first) by those that had dealings with them to be Men who had acquired lore and arts by long and secret study. They first appeared in Middle-earth about the year 1000 of the Third Age,

We have from Lotr: Appendix Tale of Years, they are speaking of the Third age

Quote:

When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth.

Quote:

c. 1100 The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgûl.

Maybe a thousand years.

[ December 04, 2002: Message edited by: Maédhros ]

Legolas · 12-03-2002, 11:52 PM

The time of the Istari's arrivals is only given once, so we're only given one option to believe. We also see a quote in The Silmarillion:

Quote:

Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards.

I used 'canonical' in the sense of which writing takes precendence. On the matter of what happened to them, we're given two thoughts, so it's cloudy on which was intended and which we should believe

12-02-2002, 11:48 AM	#1
engwaalphiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The edge of nowhere Posts: 89	The istari that succeeded I've always wondered about why Gandalf was the only one of the Istari to really succeed in his "mission" if you like ? i suppose this applies for the rest of the FOTR as well what do you think was special about THEM in particular ? Why was it their destiny to take part in the quest ? Any answers ???? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Estel............. Some have it more than others. "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!

12-02-2002, 12:03 PM	#2
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	Curumo failed for trying to domonate the 1st and 2nd born, Aiwendil faild as he became enamoured with birds and beasts and forsook men and elves and Alatar and Pallando went in to the east and did not return __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-02-2002, 01:06 PM	#3
engwaalphiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The edge of nowhere Posts: 89	Thanks for your answer [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] does anyone think there was a REASON gandalf succeeded where perhaps the others failed ? it would be nice to get some views [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Estel............. Some have it more than others. "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!

12-02-2002, 03:36 PM	#4
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Perhaps hr had a better heart. He originally didn't want to go, he went there humbly while Saruman was already near the top. maybe. __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

12-02-2002, 04:16 PM	#5
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	yeshe did say he was to weak and that he feard sauron when manwe first asked him __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-02-2002, 04:39 PM	#6
Gorothlammothiel Registered User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sitting in front of my preferred world.... Posts: 254	Just a thought... If Gandalf suceeded in his quest, I believe that it was down to, in part, the companionship, support and help he recieved from the fellowship and all races of ME. Alone he may not have completed his quest, falling to the dark powers as Saruman did. We know that he was under the reach of the ring, but resisted it. If he hadn't the faith he had in the fellowship would he have maintained that level of self control?

12-03-2002, 10:35 AM	#7
engwaalphiel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: The edge of nowhere Posts: 89	good point Gorothlammothiel! The fellowship was so strong Together and that perhaps is what made the quest work . T __________________ Estel............. Some have it more than others. "Utúlie'n aurë! Aiya Eldalië ar Atanatári, utúlie'n aurë!

12-03-2002, 11:35 AM	#8
Maédhros The Kinslayer Join Date: May 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 658	If you read Home 12: Last Writings, you will see that the blue wizards had a positive effect in the second and third ages, and in a way the succedeed too. __________________ "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio; a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy."

12-03-2002, 12:28 PM	#9
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Maedhros, that's not for certain. Only a theory. It's strange to say they had an impact on the Second Age, since they didn't come until 1000 years into the Third Age. See the related thread in this forum for the quotes on possible outcomes. Tolkien gave us his thoughts (and the blue wizards' names) two different times, each being very different from the other, with the exception of them going into the east. You cannot so readily call writings from HoME (or Unfinished Tales, for that matter) canonical. [ December 03, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-03-2002, 12:32 PM	#10
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	yes it is very likely that they set up cults in the east which in a way stoped some of the evil men of the east comeing to the wars of the west __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.

12-03-2002, 12:41 PM	#11
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	If they set up cults, it wouldn't have been for a good reason. There were other, better ways to accomplish such a mission(as Gandalf shows us). Establishing evil cults would indicate that they were no better than Saruman or Sauron in that they wanted power over Middle-earth. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

12-03-2002, 01:00 PM	#12
the witch king Wight Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Minas Morgul, Morgul Vale, Mordor Posts: 201	thats right thats why they faild but the cults did play a part i.e. they where not in support of sauron and if they had power over the men of the east it would have stoped them comeing to the aid of mordor in the war of the ring __________________ 'Whenever death may surprise us, let it be welcome if our battle cry has reached even one receptive ear and another hand reaches out to take up our arms.'~ Che Guevara.